Zoran Ristanovic joins us on The Cult and Boutique Show.

We caught up with Zoran Ristanovic, Managing Director and Wine Buyer for Richmond-based City Wine Collection, who dropped by to tell us about growing up in Bosnia, viticulture & winemaking. Zoran also shared his opinions on Bordeaux En Primeur, spotting future wine superstars and the importance of provenance.

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Cult and Boutique (00:00):
Hi there. Welcome to the Cult and Boutique Show, uh, with us today is a guest who happens to be a
neighbour of ours. Um, his name is Zoran. He works for sissy wine collections, and he’s here to join me
today on a very beautiful day here in Richmond. So, uh, thank you for joining us Zoren. How are you

Zoran (00:17):
All good. All good. Keep rock and rolling.

Cult and Boutique (00:19):
That’s what we do originally. That’s what we do best makes the best music. So, um, view your, you are
the owner now of City Wine Collection, is that correct? Yes. Yes. Um, obviously here in
Richmond and obviously before we really get into your journey, um, to City Wine Collections your
journey in wine began in the early to mid-1990s didn’t it?

Zoran (00:43):
Uh, it began when I was five.

Cult and Boutique (00:45):
Wow! So a while before that?

Zoran (00:50):
One of the first memories I’ve got is my granddad smuggling, a glass of wine with a bit of water in and sugar
under the table for me. So my mum wouldn’t see. Um, so yeah, there’s, uh, mom’s, family’s from, uh,
Croatian close from Dalmatia. So the wine is it’s like in Italy, it’s it’s on the table everyday to, it was it’s
part of existence. Um, then eventually I went to university, studied viticulture, wine growing, um, and
uh, long story short, uh, needed a proficiency in English for a job in genetics in viticulture back home, uh,
came to London to get proficiency and, uh, they blew up the country. So I got stuck here.

Cult and Boutique (01:32):
And here we are.

Zoran (01:35):
So then I worked for various different people. I was very fortunate. I worked for Stones there Belgravia,
which was at the time, the best wine shop in UK, uh, in Pont Street, which got taken over by Jeroboams.
Um, then from there I worked for Rackham’s where I was running their shop in a city, which I later to
con uh, from there, I went to run Roberson in Kensington High Street when it was the best wine shop in the
country. Uh, and then, uh, started on my own in 95. And since 95 I’ve been running my own thing,
mainly running private clients, sellers, um, managing portfolios and stuff like that. So the shop is really,
uh, an office and a showroom. Um, it’s not your standard retail.

Cult and Boutique (02:19):
No, it is beautiful

Zoran (02:29):
We don’t do spirits and no Coca Cola, cigarettes, no crisps

Cult and Boutique
No, waters down. The quality of what we do, doesn’t it.

Better to be good, basically, to be good at something.

Cult and Boutique (02:32):
Of course I agree. Yeah. Massively Musk and obviously growing up, he was in Serbia. You grew up Kratz I
grew up in Bosnia and Bosnia, sorry. Okay. Boston half curled from Bosnia. Right. Okay. And obviously
when people think of wine, usually Bosnia and Arizona are not often associated with wine as such. So

Zoran (02:58):
The Northern part, no, it’s more fruit, um, spirits, like [inaudible] type of thing, but it has to go over and
it has a massive wine region, uh, all Yugoslavia that was when I was growing up. And that was at the
time 10th, largest wine producer in the world. Wow. So we’ve, we’ve had the wines in a SaaS or Serbia
and in our genetic code, certainly before they even thought of it in burgundy. Wow. Well, way before.

Cult and Boutique (03:22):
I mean that I still make an, um,

Zoran (03:26):
There’s tons of wines styles. Our styles have changed, but yeah, there’s, there’s plenty of wine over
there. The problem is that for many, many years, the concept of production was to produce a lot of
drinkable stuff. Right. Quite good for up. So when I was at university, really the, the, the basic
methodology was how to produce as much juice from as little land as you can. I diluting it. Uh, so it took
me a long time to understand the concept of how to make a high quality wine. But once you kind of get
a good grounding in how to grow the vineyards, then eventually it gets to be standard. So I have worked
in, in Bordeaux, I’ve worked in Spain, I’ve consulted on the wineries in New Zealand. I’ve designed a
couple of wineries in Serbia in the last 10 years.

Cult and Boutique (04:18):
How was that? How would those projects go?

Zoran (04:20):
Well, the, the ones in Serbia are doing very well, uh, both, uh, but they both owned. They’re both owned
by students who were at my university because I was supposed to stay at university, um, after getting
my English proficiency to teach and genetics and so on. Um, so yeah, the good guys, but the market is
still local. People who have enough money will buy psychiatrists. Uh, they will not buy local wines. So
the local market is still dominated by reasonable quality. Quality is a better than 20 years ago, but it’s
still not something that could be presented to the world. Certainly not at the prices that locally could be

Cult and Boutique (05:02):
Sure, sure. I mean, to be honest, we was at the Robert Parker’s matter of tastes and they do this tour
across Southeast Asia, America, um, parts of Europe, mainly like Geneva and Paris. And then of course,
London and I believe

Zoran (05:19):
I had three wineries or the last one in London,

Cult and Boutique (05:21):
I was going to say there was one we went to in 2016 at the Saatchi gallery and actually had some
Serbian wine there as an example where it was even for myself, because I had like so many different
countries that I didn’t even know were producing wine. That was my ignorance. You know, when we
went and we tried it and it was phenomenal. And even when I went to, I went to had aneurysm wines, I
believe back in 2014, Robert Park jr. Um, had came to London for the first time and either 20 or 25
years. And he was, um, you know, there were tickets to be able to meet Parker and get like a signature
of, from his new lifestyle magazine, a hundred points. And if you bought up a VIP ticket, you got 90 Dom
Perignon, uh, when you arrived, but you got sampled 10 different 100 point wines, which included one,
uh, Serbian, I believe it was a dessert wine. I believe it was a dessert wine. It was, uh, six years ago
before I knew there was a Serbian one done. I don’t want to lean towards ABM, dessert, wine,

Zoran (06:21):
Not aware of Serbian ones, a hundred points, but yeah,

Cult and Boutique (06:24):
Yeah, it could be. Yeah. So they’re out there, they’re out there. That’s for sure.

Zoran (06:29):
The Southern part of Serbia is on the level where the climatic conditions are very similar to burgundy,
uh, possibly slightly better. Um, the soil and the, the land makeup is almost identical to Boden. They
actually took, um, Bernard rappel who now runs a [inaudible]. He was at the time MD of a shadow, uh,
article 15 years ago. Now, um, over there, they were looking to expand to get some land because in the
land is it’s, it’s made for Pinot noir and Chardonnay. The problem is that, um, again, that takes a lot of
work market. Can’t pay the prices, uh, but there’s a local grape writer called Praca butts, which, uh, is, I
would say somewhere between Pinot noir and Grown-ish in, when it’s well made. And that is, uh, in my
books, that is the best thing that, that they could do to promote what they do, making another Merle or
shadow. So when your blonde is just going to be another one in the sea of Chardonnays and mellows,
so, uh, but yeah, there’s, there’s plenty of stuff to do, essentially what needs to happen. My generation
needs to die. Um, because companies are now run by my generation and we were trained to produce as
much juice as we possibly can bring it to the winery. And then a chemist in the winery will make a

Cult and Boutique (07:52):
So is it more like the beliefs of yesteryear, which is what the problem?

Zoran (07:55):
Well, my generation needs to retire and gets removed from, from the management positions within the
large companies that make wine, new kids need to take over and just it’s slowly happening. It’s the
progress in the last 10, 15 years has been enormous. It’s like multiples of hundreds and per year.

Cult and Boutique (08:12):
That’s very interesting. You say that because of course we all know about how many Southeast Asian
collapses there are for a lot of fine wine and wine in general, as well of champagne. And we know
they’re moving on to some of the whiskeys as well, even though they’re trying to climatize their palates
Wars, Xs obviously is very high in alcohol, but of course, you’ve got Louis Vuitton, Moet Hennessy,
they’ve created AOL young, which has become quite a figure piece in the luxury brand world. And, you
know, James [inaudible], um, website, James suckling.com recently done, I think, five or 10 Bordeaux,
some of the best ways to clear the shots at a feet Rothschild, um, versus five or 10, uh, Chinese wines
and the blind tasting and the Chinese wine has happened to, um, rival, uh, lots of the Bordeaux’s in
some of these blind taste and similar to like the judgment of Paris. Do you feel that’s what it would take,
say like a conglomerate lightly with it’s on my Hennessy to go back to help bring up the quality of what’s
being produced, um, you know, back there, you know, back in the motherland, or do you think it just
takes someone with the right initiative? Like I said, that young generation that more right. I can make
this a better version of burgundy or a better version of, um, Australian Grenache or something like that,

Zoran (09:32):
The young generation, for sure. Sure. LVMH and the likes will just, it’s just going to be another cheap
land, cheap labor for them that they’re never going to try to produce quality. They’re just going to try
and produce something that will have a cheap source. Having said it with the predicted over supply of
the wine in the next couple of years, I don’t think anyone’s going to be aiming in that direction. That is
China is different because in China you do have, there’s more billionaires in China then than people with
a hundred euros in their pocket in Serbia, actually, it’s probably more billionaires than a whole
population of Serbia. Um, so yeah, they not going to be chasing small vineyard in Serbia summer. It’s
not, it doesn’t have a prestige that burgundy has. It doesn’t have a prestige. The Tuscany has, uh,
infrastructure is not there yet in terms of roads and hotels.

Zoran (10:20):
And so on most of those places, um, where if you go to where the best vineyards are, it’s similar to, let’s
say Ribera Del Duero 20 years ago. I remember when I first started going, you’re the nearest hotel to any
RAF reasonable winery was about two hours drive, um, things change and are changing. And, uh, but
yeah, I, the only thing that’s going to happen, and there’s a couple of very good guys, um, that are
progressing very fast, uh, as, uh, one guy, um, just outside Aleksandra Watts, which is a local, uh, region
who was, uh, a doctor of wine technology at university of Belgrade in Zimmerman. Who’s now moved,
left his job and moved to the family farm and started new winery. Um, so there’s going to be, there’s
going to be things coming from there, but again, the winery is currently being built.

Zoran (11:12):
Um, the vineyards are currently being rejigged into the pie quality production, but he knows very well
what he’s doing. And, um, I would say five to 10 years time, there will be some seriously good stuff
coming out of that. Um, they’re not the Serbs, as in general, are not very good at PR. They tend to be
kind of very proud people. I’m half soap, half cried. So I know, I know both sides of the side of the cone.
They’re, um, they tend to produce what they produce, but in a way they’re kind of like a burgundy from
30 years ago. Right. I remember when I started going to burgundy first, most of the mains you’d go into,
unless you to NIGOs, which is all about selling the large volumes of this stuff, you’re going to say, okay,
this is what I make. That’s it, you like it, you like it. And I like it. I like it. This is what I make. They’re not
going to bend backwards and try to try to produce something that will sell, they produce what they
produce. Right. So it will take a bit of time for someone to start discovering that and then being able to
present it to journalists or whoever it may be, who will throw some light at it. But it’s potentially is
there. I think there’s going to be lots of there, uh, while I’m still able to drink.

Cult and Boutique (12:28):
Well, that’s, that’s the most important thing for sure. They’re very good. And, um, moving on, obviously
this wine collection started in 2000 and free.

Zoran (12:38):
Uh, the shop was opened in 2003, uh, under city wine collection, but I joined in 95 with Norman
gardener, who was my partner at the time, um, when I left Robeson, uh, which was 95. And then we
opened a shop by that time we took over three restaurants to manage. Uh, so we had, um, essentially
costumes that needed to supply and stock to come in and tastings to be done. And so on. And this little
place, which I used to manage for Rackham’s came up, um, at least came up. So I took that. Um, but
yeah, it was, it was, uh, I’ve got, uh, 20 square meters, nothing. Uh, but I, yeah, I mean, I still had, at the
time I had about six, seven vintages of Sasakawa on the, on the shelf, I had three or four vintages of all
the syndromes because we had a full set of first growth.

Zoran (13:27):
The whole lot as a one wall was just on pairing. And in crook, you’re in the middle of a city. What else
are you going to do? Of course, in those days you could kind of, you could still get those things, but the
main, uh, the main prospect, the main main activity of the business is running private sellers for people,
but not for the traditional, uh, Barry brothers clients, or high-end collectors. It’s more for, uh, let’s say
self-made people who are quite happy to trust their own pallets, rather than journalists pilots, Notting
to do against journalists. They have a, they do exceptional job.

Cult and Boutique (14:03):
So passion, then they

Zoran (14:05):
Follow what they like. They’re quite happy for someone to find it for them to recommend it. Right. So
the entire business was if you want, if you want to abbreviated who would be finding a future superstars
before they become anything. So I started buying sassy, Kaia and tinea Nella in 96 vintage. So, uh, 98 by
palette. Wow. And not an Alaya from 98 vintage. So we still have some stock original stock from, I sort of
have a bit of Oh one or, and I left.

Cult and Boutique (14:36):
Imagine if you had the [inaudible], that would have been [inaudible].

Zoran (14:41):
Uh, but it’s um, so that’s, that’s what I try to do for content, but you haven’t been back there. I’ve
started buying in 99 and we started selling in 2009. And again, there was a couple of policy. Yeah.

Cult and Boutique (14:55):
So bonds are Ponce County for, I mean, it’s adjacent to shadow moose on Rothschild. And for me offers
such great value for money even in today’s prices for what you would pay

Zoran (15:07):
Well enough. The first time I bought upon Titanic was, uh, in 2001 99 was being presented. I was driving
out of Mouton after tasting to preoc tasting, and I saw a car driving into punter County. So turn around,
drove behind it. Um, uh, just to ask a couple of questions as it turned out, alpha Tessa and came out and
I came out of black death, um, slightly bigger than offered. Um, and I said, sorry, I don’t want to scare
you, but just want to, re-ask the question. Why is it that you have a better terror and Mouton because
the slope that they have is better than Natanz. Why is it that Ponti is not producing better wines? And
he said, Oh, well, you need to come. So basically dropped everything and took me in. And we had a good
hour tour, just him and me and the winery.

Zoran (15:51):
They were going screaming for wine back from that from the day I think tasting was because in those
days they did everything together. I think it was in baseball or someone like that. Um, and, um, I kind of
took a pant on it. Uh, the wine was showing better on 99 and, but the energy behind him and what he
showed me, he is doing what he’s going to do. Cause he took over in 91, I think. So by then it started
showing, um, that was the first winter that I bought. And then actually one of the negatives that I was
working, where it didn’t have the location. So I got Alfred to give them a location, especially for me. So
he knew the stock is for me. And then, uh, yeah, we bought until well until the 2013, pretty much every
vintage, anywhere between 70 and a hundred, hundred and 50 cases.

Cult and Boutique (16:43):
Wow. That’s a lot,

Zoran (16:46):
I’m still still have a fair bit of punter candidates. Um, I’m, I’m happy,

Cult and Boutique (16:50):

Zoran (16:52):
Some of it, but, um, but th the thing that I do, and this is the rule that sets, um, I only ever buy on promo
for the boarder. I don’t buy anything in a secondary market. Uh, all the other stuff I buy on release
through UK agents until I, unless I can get it directly from the winery. Um, if I, if I ship through an agent,
then like, if I take pallet of Sasakawa sometimes because I’ll take up a parcel with Alberto, then I would
ship myself rather than them. So all the stock we have is, and that’s one of the things that I insist on. Not
no auctions, no second hands, no everything has to be

Cult and Boutique (17:31):

Zoran (17:31):
And I think as we go forward, that aspect will be more and more important than, than what is on the
label. So, um, yeah, I’m quite happy with what we holding at the moment, uh, with offering numbers
about, but those are depending on whether you look at it in a current market cost is somewhere in a bit,
but two and a half million under management. Um, but the future is, uh, so, uh, you know, Dustin has
already found, I don’t think anything in Tuscany will hit the levels of sasikala and Elia 10 and Ella pergola
torture. I’ve always had an issue with bought a few years, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t work for me. I don’t, I
still, I still assist that everything gets sent to me as a sample. Yes. Um, we tasted normal tastings, but I
pay for the samples to be sent to the shop. Uh, I tend to any of the new wines. I tend to look over three
days, so we get them in and let them rest for a day or two open in the morning, tastes in the morning,
evening next morning, next evening. And next morning to see the development. And that’s when I made
an offer or not as the case might be. Um, so I I’m no, not my gate.

Cult and Boutique (18:40):
Okay. Okay. Well, as a matter of opinion, that’s the great thing about why some, like it don’t,

Zoran (18:46):
But that the critics are very useful, but whenever I make an offer, uh, there’s my review. And then
there’s a link to critics reviews. If anybody wants to read them, to me, the issue is that someone buys a
case of wine from me and I say, drink it in 10 years time. And we deliver it in 10 years time. And they
don’t like it. They can call me and say, take this back because this is not what I expected. And I would
take it back. They cannot call Suckling or Parker. Anyone say, Oh, you, you gave this so many points in

Cult and Boutique (19:16):
A new set. Fair enough. So

Zoran (19:19):
I stand behind everyone and therefore we don’t buy, I don’t buy anything because it’s sellable. I buy
things because they’re good.

Cult and Boutique (19:27):
So you’ve kind of answered that. One of the questions I was going to ask, which again, I was going to
ask, you know, what kind of clientele you tend to attract still with, you know, whether it be more
enthusiastic, collapses, novices, et cetera. And it sounds without presuming that it is more people, right.
Zuora, and I know what I want. I know what I’m after. I know I can rely on you. What have you,

Zoran (19:48):
It’s mainly the people who know what they want. If they call me and say, I’ll get me a case or two a day.
So I’ll just try it in restaurant. Um, if I don’t, if it’s not something that I already buy or recommend, it will
be, I would send an email back and I keep them just in case they call back in five years time, uh, as they
did, um, yes, no problem to get it, but it doesn’t cover my recommendation. So if you read about it, if
you tried it, you like it. No problem. But, uh, the stuff that comes with my recommendation, I stand
behind fully. Um, most of the people would be people who want to learn about who I, not people who
want to have a massive collections understood, and people want to drink decent wine and relevant
what it says on the label. Understood. Understood. Um, so, and for most of the new regions or the new
wineries, if you think Tuscany 20, 30 years ago, Bulgari until 92 Cecilia was table wine, it takes for the
new region 20 to 30 years to become Bulgari, uh, obviously with advance of internet and other things,
it’s going to be spit sped up. Um, but I, I always look for another place where things are being
developed. So, and my guys tend to follow what I say because they know they’re going to get a decent
bottle of wine.

Cult and Boutique (21:06):
That’s the most important thing. Absolutely

Zoran (21:08):
Idea is in principle to, instead of getting a one case of wine for yourself to drink, you buy four and then
five, 10 years later, we sell three for what you paid for four, you’ll get more than that. So in reality, once
you put a decent infrastructure together, you get to drink for free for the rest of your life.

Cult and Boutique (21:26):

Zoran (21:28):
So that’s, that’s, that’s pretty much what it is. So my job, uh, it’s, it’s a buying based business rather than
selling based business. I spend 80% of my time in tastings in traveling, which is difficult at the moment,
um, and buying so for the border and promoted this year, I send the first review saying on until I get
samples, I can’t make any offers. Uh, we had samples sent for most of the shutters that I worked with
for many years. So I didn’t manage to taste most of the things.

Cult and Boutique (21:55):
I’m glad you brought that up because I saw that you, um, you covered 2019 on prem. Uh, to some
extent we were massively behind on pro is the first one promo campaign in several years while we
fought, okay, great price, reductions, great quality throughout. And we sought out generally across the
board, decent scores. I know, obviously you’re not big on the scores per se, but of course, because of
our business setup, we do rely a lot on that as well. Um, but of course the price in is also, you know, very
important. And I think across the board, there was an average of around a 20 to 30% reduction
compared to, to 20 eighteens. And we had a successful campaign, our clients massive with open arms.
How did you find this one? My team campaigns be overall. Once we overcame the challenges,

Zoran (22:46):
Um, it, it turned out much better than I thought it would be. Um, again, the wines that I recommended
and on the final email that went out, uh, all other than a maniac, which was not sending samples. So
Mouton team was on sending samples were based on the samples that came to the shop and got tasted
some of them, uh, that I normally follow such as [inaudible] he had samples twice. They were not good
enough. So I said, no, go, um, [inaudible] was disappointing. I know he’d got 99 points. My comments
were, I’m not buying because sample that I had was not up to standard. Um, things like be Sean, come
tests, uh, we’re fine. I don’t really have an issue. Um, I’m not necessarily that much behind the concept
of price reduction compared to 18, because I think 18 is, were way over priced. And I think that the
product reduction in price in 19 doesn’t quite reach where it should have been for a lot of properties.
[inaudible], um, Ponta, can I be in another one? Um, but, uh, we bought, we bought a lot, I bought 1200
bottles of Tableau, for example,

Cult and Boutique (24:02):
As I said, that’s definitely a favor. And I think if you look at a 10 year perspective, though, we’ve, we’ve
had, the prices were for this year is on promote promoter campaign on reflection, I think could
represent good value for money. My opinion is because once we get some more continuity across the
world in 2020 or 2021, what usually happens with Bordeaux since the 2009 campaign and the 2010
campaign when their prices on promoter was, it was stupid. Let’s be honest because again, especially
because they saw the influence of Southeast Asia and they thought, right, we’re going to just make a
quick buck here next year is on promote is going to be quite expensive. I almost know because they’re
already saying that 2020 has been a phenomenal year, but again, with the price reduction is what
they’ve been able to do. They’ve been able to bring people in, but that’s why I think when they start
really surprises next year, they’re not going to w we’re not going to see similar prices.

Cult and Boutique (25:04):
What we saw for this year is on promo campaign and fats, I reckon we’ll see 10 50 and 18% increase
compared to what we saw for this year. And that’s where they’re going to start to revert back to their
old selves, because maybe economically the world is going to be used to this new norm that we’re
having to adjust to. And so in that typical ways, I hate to say it, but it’s true. Even when the first team
was about Vince Jair, 14 was mediocre 15 was really good, but as an excuse to bump the price up again,
16 was really good as a Vince jet, but again, an additional price reduction 17. And I say again, that’s why
I think 2019 in probably 10 years time would represent good value for money.

Zoran (25:43):
Uh, yes, for sure. Um, uh, even sooner than 10 years time, uh, but I’m not, uh, I’m not convinced that
2020 will go up in the price that much, which we’ll see. Um, there’s an issue, uh, some of the top wines
potentially. Yes. Um, but the, uh, the border plus has a lot of stock chateaus have a lot of stocks. So, so,
um, at some point liquidity has to come into it. And one of the, my view on, on a lot of those things,
which is probably very controversial to majority of the fine wine trade, but, uh, I think that the reason
why they can maintain the price increases at the Chateau today do is more to do with the fact that they
can borrow money at 0%, as much as they want. So, and they can borrow money because border
exchange operates as a, as a stock exchange, if Chateau, blah, blah, blah.

Zoran (26:41):
Let’s not name names. Yeah. Can sell 500 bottles or 5,000 bottles on a border. Plus at hundreds euros a
bottle, they can basically borrow against all the stock remaining stock at that price level at 0%. Right. So
why would they sell it to you and me at 70, if they can get 0% interest on the a hundred. Right. And I
think that’s why they’ve managed to get the, the, the shortage of supply to the marketplace, you know,
hiking, uh, uh, any of the, of the great shutters. Let’s not list any of them can run a business. It was
released in 20 or 30% of the stock.

Cult and Boutique (27:24):
Yeah, my account, they couldn’t pre 2008. No, no, no. That hold them back more than 11. This is.

Zoran (27:32):
Yeah. But that’s because they can borrow money to represent against the stock.

Cult and Boutique (27:37):
You may not want to ask this question, but you furnace why, and again, so I’ll ask it to Jeff. And that’s
why I shattered the tour, made that move.

Zoran (27:45):
Charlottesville made a move before we knew that Chateau was holding stock, but Shatara Toon. Who’s
owned by one of the richest people in the world. And he and the business is run by accountants and
accountant and say, hang on. Average price for shuttle at auto market is 300. Why are we selling for
180? Because we need to know we have tons of money and people who are the, the credit mutual
boards or 55% of [inaudible] was a reasonable value of 35 to 40 on the release. Then I recently 75, if you
go to Craig’s mutual and say, well, listen, you know, we, we actually need to be selling this at three. Why
we getting money from people? Our job is to invest the money. We don’t know what to do with money.
Why would be giving a 30% discount to the stock? Absolutely. Um, and that’s where it sits as long as
they can be, as long as they are in a situation to borrow at those levels, there is no reason.

Zoran (28:43):
And then it becomes a bit of an ego issue over there. Who’s gonna outbid whom in terms of how you
price your stock. So, you know, for shatter, if, if the two shadows on a similar level of recognition, again,
let’s not name names, but let’s say one of them comes out at a hundred euros and doesn’t sell either
one comes out at 85 and sells everything. Then he can say, when they sit together, you see, I understand
the market better than you. Yes. It’s done a numbers game. Um, to me, again, it still boils down to, I buy
on behalf of my clients. I don’t sell to them. I get given most of the campaigns. I get given a budget by
clients. When I come back from Bordeaux, I send a report saying, this is what I think, so, okay. We’ll try
to put in. So they’ll give me whatever that may be five, 10, 15, 20, sometimes more than that. And I buy
to that budget on their behalf. I don’t sell individual. Some people would just pick off bits and pieces, but
those are mainly drinkers who take them one case of this, one case of that. Uh, most of the others, I
would put together a structure. So I’d know before the wind started coming out on the market, I know
how much money I’ve got in a kitty to spend.

Cult and Boutique (29:53):
Yes. It’s always good to have that.

Zoran (29:56):
Of course. Then you go and pick the cherries if that’s the right,

Cult and Boutique (30:00):
That’s it. Yeah. And I said, okay, okay. I’ll ask a couple of questions. What would, what would your advice
be then for anyone looking to build a wine portfolio? I know you’re more used to dealing with people
who say, I know what I’m after, plus I trust you. But if someone say, pretend, I knew that my family were
in swine, but I was a novice. I was in living in Richmond and I came across this wine collection. I walked
into your store and say, my grandma’s has left me X amount of money. What do I do with it? What
would your,

Zoran (30:35):
Um, I tend not to work with pure investors. I prefer to people who actually drink some stuff. Um, but as
it there’s a it’s investment, like any, it’s like any other investments you need to analyze, uh, the level of
risk you want to take. Sure. So if you come and tell me a zone and I go to Las Vegas twice a year with a
hundred grand in pocket, sometimes I come back on a private jet. Sometimes I come back with no
shoes, either by your different wines. Then if you say, all my savings are in government bonds, then I’ll
buy different wines for you. And I’ll put the portfolio together. Based on that portfolio would be as
opposed to 60, 40 to have most of hedge funds. And most of major investment companies do, it will be
about 35, 35 30, where 35 would be your government bonds.

Zoran (31:19):
So Lynch barge and the like, um, 30%, depending on how big the budget is, would it be the superstars?
So let’s say if you’ve got a hundred grand, then you can fit in a six pack or two of Lafayette and Latour
and so on and so on. If your budget is 10 grand and you can’t because there’ll be the entire budget. Um,
and then third would go on the future superstars. So depending on how you look at your return, I’d
always say to people that it’s not a short-term thing, it’s a longterm thing in the old days was five to
seven. Now it’s now say eight to 10. Yes, I suppose, is, is the spread. Um, but if you look at, if you look at
a structure it’s a 2010 vintage that you mentioned, for example, and I bought a lot of 2010 because
everybody wanted to talk then of course, um, and things like, let me see on Aubriana, I’ve made a
massive loss, but there were wives that made a, made a, a growth even when they were released.

Zoran (32:14):
So something like card in Arlene sent a million for example, is, uh, I’ve traded most of what we took in at
more than 10% growth per year. And we started trading trading four years ago. And you still, at the
moment, you’ll be paying high up on four 50, four 80, and the release price was two 40. That’s one of
the very few that that’s performed, um, to me for, if you look at release price of even a 2010 Chateau
turbo has been under priced for the brand value and for the quality 10, 11, 12, all of them had worked.
What about nine? Um, so I don’t chase the superstars because the fact that someone sells a, I saw
yesterday an offer on, um, 1993, Petrus, I think as a bargain at 1100 thousand 11 and a half thousand
pounds in 1993 was disasters. Why would I ever want to pay 11 and a half thousand?

Zoran (33:14):
So it will make a news, but no one tells you that you probably gonna lose 11 and a half thousand on it in
the right minds, go to take it. That’s true. Um, I don’t buy wines that sell for thousands of pounds a
bottle, because if you need to get out of that market, chances are you’re gonna lose a lot of money. Uh,
if you look at it, for example, lost. So why is that? I look for, for example, uh, where you have a, which
would be in the third, that is a future superstars. Uh, shatter goes in Margo, which consistently dates has
been, has been bought 15, 20 years ago, completely refurbished, consistently rated in the nineties and
consistently selling for 20 or less than $20 a bottle. Now you can take that storage will take certain
aspects of it, but it will still give you a 5% off the storage of growth. So do you have 50 cases of
Labrador? So do you have one case of a feat? That’s true.

Cult and Boutique (34:10):
Well, so yeah, I mean, you’re right. I mean, from, we’ve dealt with, we do deal with some of those Uber
route wines, mainly for like Palm role, Petrus, Lappin, uh, legalese, clan. I, um, love your lats. Um, of
course, some domains that are Romney concierge and you are right. Obviously sometimes if you’re
looking at one and sell out within like a year or two, it may be difficult, but at same time, depending on
your elements of risk, we’ve seen clients who after a year and a half, well, want to not even wanting to
sell, they’ve had like a free to five, seven year window where they’re up like 40%, because if it goes right,
some people are just like, I must have that trophy. It’s a, you know, it’s a big score. It’s the classic vintage
year. Indeed. It’s just the availability.

Zoran (34:58):
Hence Do you do it to Las Vegas, or do they have government boats.

Cult and Boutique (35:02):
I love that. I love that. Okay.

Zoran (35:05):
Th th the way I would structure a portfolio would depend on what you give me. First of all, you need to
tell me what level of risk you want to take. So we will assess it based on the risk level that you want to
take. Obviously, how big is the budget really in different portfolio for 10 grand and a hundred grand, and
how soon you expect it to need to be liquid. If you tell me I want to turn it over by Christmas, then I’m
going to say, this is not a right place possible. Um, if you say, well, you know, I’ve got a lot of clients who
are doing children’s coffees. Sure. So you say, you know, I’ll pop, I’ve got three kids. I’ll pop 10 grand into
everybody’s name every year for the next 10 years, which just get something that will have that. It’s a
completely different portfolio, too. Definitely. You have to tailor, make it for everyone, but there is a,
there’s always a question of looking for what is the next thing where there’s a value to me? The, the
investment is always based. If I taste something that has a value of 50, but it’d been sold at 20 or 30.
That’s a buy. If I taste something that has a value of 50 and it’s selling at a hundred, even if the sapling in
restaurant, it gives you a hundred points. I don’t necessarily go for it.

Cult and Boutique (36:18):
Okay. I like that philosophy though. It’s good.

Zoran (36:21):
So, so you need to look at next Bulgari. You need to look at a next pontic County. You need to look at the
next floor, Cardinal. You need to look at absolutely. Um, the, the, I dunno, let’s say the boat for Golan
cigar has sailed because it hit the plateau limit. Yeah. So whatever you do with it, it’s,

Cult and Boutique (36:38):
It is what it is definitely

Zoran (36:41):
Caused us to nettle few years ago and so on. Yeah. So, uh, the place to look at, and that’s where the
quality is going massively up, uh, but also understanding of how to present it, uh, would be in my books,
the most undervalued place in all of Europe, if not in the world is way better than [inaudible].
Cult and Boutique (37:05):
You can get a decent 15, 20 pounds per bottle of, uh, easily people think real high temper, Neo, you
know, brands. Yeah, I agree. But Ribeira, it’s a game changer. It’s not only, it doesn’t taste like a Spanish
wine. It has those Spanish characteristics about it. Don’t get me wrong. So you notice the Spanish wine,
but you don’t instantly finger [inaudible] granola, or only from that you think that is something that
could be confused for a very elegant, um, French wine combined with someone else. I agree. 100.

Zoran (37:40):
It’s a very, the thing about Ribera. Um, and I spend a lot of time Roberta. I have done for the last 10
years. I go pre locked on at least three, four times a year. Um, it’s, it’s a bottom of an old Lake that was
in the middle of the Northern part of Spain. So as the peninsula, Rose Rivers flew out of the Lake and it’s
completely surrounded by the mountains, a massive big Valley. So all the best when your eyes are up at
about 900, 800 to 900 meters in the villages on the old Sunday beaches of the Lake. So you’ve got a sun
that you would get normally in Spain in the Northern Spain. Uh, but you also have nights where in
August, when during the day is 40 degrees, the temperature drops onto seven. So in the ripening time,
you actually get to retain acidity and you have the ripeness that you would get real highs. And the
reference in Mediterranean, you can have a good years of bad years and you have a shed load arena,
not in the Abeta. There is nobody yet there a different style is there’s a continental Atlantic, depending
on whether it’s a cooler or hotter, but cool vintage in, in Ribera is like a hot indigent border. Yes,

Cult and Boutique (38:47):
Yes. I’ve never had a bad bustle from Ribeira sites, but they also have a, they also have a size

Zoran (38:54):
On production so people can get to taste it. Uh, and they, um, they’re pretty good in terms of, uh,
running a business. So other than the people from real high-end tourists and so on, who are buying land
left, right. And center in Ribera and Toro. Um, but the, the local guys are very good. They have Mariana
Garcia who used to run, who created Vega Cecilia, essentially. He was a great, so he now run his own
States. So a disclaimer here, I represent Mariana Garcia, family wines in UK. So, um, but yeah, he’s the
one who run Vegas since, uh, early sixties stills, uh, 98. And at the time Vega was the only place. Uh,
we’ve had pingers, uh, peach system and I’ve started buying pingers and Florida pingers on the border.
Plus back in 99 from Janick Turnwell, uh, until Courtney and borough got the agency. And so I had to buy
through them. And, uh, we’ve again, had a pile of whole pallet pingers for about 10 odd years, uh, sold
most of it, uh, from in the last four or five years. Um, there are new properties that are coming, that are
of that quality at quarter of money. There we go. If you want to know, uh, Alto is the place to go,

Cult and Boutique (40:15):
Oh, I’ll come see you for that. That’s a show bus. Um, all right. All right. Last question. Before we wrap
things up and it’s more, obviously this year has been in general, it’s just been a challenging year
university. So really our site, as we do close it out, what positives for yourself personally, do you feel
you’ll be able to bring it to next year and have you got anything new in the pipeline?

Zoran (40:45):
I’m new, not because planning anything is impossible. There’s no pointing even trying to from two days
ago to now, we are now half locked up, not, we don’t know in that within a week, we might be
completely locked or not, uh, or we may or may not choose whether to accept it or not as they’re doing
Manchester or not. Um, so making any plans is, is impossible. Uh, but the one that stick to quality, taste,
taste everything, and stick to quality and tighten the belt. It’s a, I look at it as being a, a ship in the
ocean. The storm is coming in a drop to sales tie yourself up, and

Cult and Boutique (41:28):
Someone will come through

Zoran (41:30):
This. We will come through this. Um, uh, it’s a service to clients will be the most important thing. Uh,
making sure that you are available more often than before on your phone, most replying to emails, as
soon as you can, making sure that you can arrange a deliveries when it suits them, because they also
have to run the family. They also have to run their businesses, which are running from home, um, be
adaptable and stick to quality, definitely the quality that’s, that’s the only thing. Um, we might be in a
situation where quality costs less, which would be, which would be helpful. Um, we will probably have
to, at some point over the next 24 months bottle, the, uh, the Lake or wine that is unsold in, uh, uh, in
the lower aspects of the quality, which would influence how the better quality wine can be distributed.
Yes. Um, but yeah, we all rediscovering that we are human and we need, we need each other. We do.
It’s not numbers. It’s, it’s, uh, um, trying, trying to bring a smile on someone’s face makes a difference.

Cult and Boutique (42:42):
Well, I love that. I love that sounds more like spirituality podcasts and the wind poker. I love true. We
should end on that positive cause really that’s what we, that’s what we need where one thing is
definitely taught myself. And I think covers is that smile, more, try to worry less and just made the most
of everything that you can and enjoy some great wine in the process as well. But, uh, right. So on that
note, I’m very first, you know, so myself and Zara are going to have a boss and have to have some very
fine Ribeira, but, um, thank you for joining us one scan and, uh, look after yourselves.

After spending two decades working with Justerini & Brooks, Emirates Airlines and Goedhuis & Co., Mark Robertson joined the Dreweatts Wine department as a consultant in 2017.

Working at the sharp end of the wine market, Mark has been involved with some of the most important wine sales across the UK, Middle East & Asia gaining a wealth of experience.

From the history of Hong Kong wine import duties to the growth and success of Italian & Napa wines, Mark took us on a real journey with this episode, including his personal love for wine and some of his favourites over the years.

Full Auto-Transcript

[00:00:00] Hi. Welcome to the Cult and boutique show. Joining me today via Putney Bridge to collect a ’66 Chateau Latour jeroboam

[00:00:12] It’s none other than Mark Robertson head of Dreweatt’s wine department. Mark, thanks for joining us. How are you today?

[00:00:17] Very well. A pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:00:19] You’re more than welcome. So let’s get to it. How did your passion for wine begin?

[00:00:26] How did it begin? I think it’s always quite hard to admit. Actually.

[00:00:33] I can still remember my father being given two bottles when I was pretty young. I must be 10 or something. And it was a Lafite and a Talbot, and I remember him letting us try them.

[00:00:50] And I was terrible to say. It’s like something missing.

[00:00:54] And I remember liking it sounds quite pretentious, but I remember liking the Lafite more than the Talbot. I still remember it. I also remember being dragged around France as a child. The back of the car. And, you know, we used to drink a lot of Mombazillac. Well, why Father Well, my Mother didn’t really drink much. But, you know, it was just sort of peaked an interest in that. And, you know, I started working after university. I started working for Justerini & Brooks, which was a great place to learn the trade myself. And it just opened up so many opportunities that you wouldn’t have in smaller merchants or.

[00:01:38] And it was really it was before the time of, you know, joining for the time you were talking about wine investment and all those things. It really was just all about wine and that all the director’s lunches upstairs. And so we got to try the most fabulous wines. I think our managing director at the time to go back to Latour.

[00:02:03] I think he I don’t know what vintage it was, how bad it was that much.

[00:02:08] But he actually it was seventy-six, seventy-six Latour. And would he like to do is he’d have a number of lunches, a repetitive week, and he would get quite sort of stuck in too few cases. And there was always quite a lot left over. So we just had the opportunity then to drink things that no one aged 20, 21 would nowadays joining the trade would ever have or can, even afford. So it was quite hard to break away from if I wanted to do something else, but it was a great company to to to cut your teeth in a major St James’s bounce and change the street. Yeah, I know what it’s like now. I haven’t I have friends still there, but everyone does different things. I think they’re still pretty good. I think.

[00:02:57] I think so. I think so. Yeah, I think so. But some. All right. So more focus on Dreweatt’s that build a great reputation, auctioning from coins, arts, antiques, et cetera. Do you find that you have a large crossover of buyers? No. What do most people buy wines. Who are buying wines tend to know what they’re looking for?

[00:03:21] We don’t have a huge crossover of buyers between us and the other departments that we’re trying to sell. We’re trying to look at more. It’s you know, there’s things like watches and things like that I’ve always felt was more Cinergy collectors you could always call luxury goods. Certainly for the vandal’s, yes, there’s a crossover. You know, people have selling big houses and, you know, there’s always a seller under the furniture, so to speak. Yes. Been buyers. No. The buyers tend to be focussed on wine and wine. But, you know, that’s not to say we or we should be doing more to encourage people to. We used to tell me that with Christi’s that the wine puzzle, if you’re a successful lab. But when Christy started to really slim down and you just have impressionists, old masters and jewellery and, you know, not all the sort of smaller departments that they kept wine King Street because it always used to bring in new buyers for other departments. It was a good it was a good book. Yes. Yeah. So. And particularly for the Asian market as well.

[00:04:43] It was always nice to draw people in, but that was also like salvages philosophy. He would always and even today, when you go to you got Smar blotched guys on the street.

[00:04:55] One thing that they’re big on is the window display because you just lure people in. And the guy knows that exoticism about the way people just a walk that looks beautiful. The what is the label? The large Bussel formats. How the presents and the lights. And naturally, those bring people in. Yeah, definitely. I saw. All right. And you’ve been involved in the wine industry for over about 20 years now. Yeah.

[00:05:17] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you think about on my way off the shelves, I was asked that question and I think, yeah, it is about 20 years.

[00:05:24] I mean, my first on Primmer vintage was was the 2000, my real sort of one that I called it fenceless visit. So because I was just thinking how it’s sort of anticipating what I might be asked about, things that I just think of when you look back at these on prevention, you can sort of track your career from all the data these days.

[00:05:47] Not at all. He says, like it? Yeah, it’s definitely. But it seems Housum was special. Yeah, very.

[00:05:55] Yeah. It was a game changer, I think, in terms of, you know, it was when people really started to look at wine as an investment. But it’s something like a little bit more than just boxes.

[00:06:10] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So obviously, from when you started off with it, we know you’ve tried to do it now, but you you touched upon it. You started off as just the RENIE. What has been your journey in between just Iranian jurists up till now?

[00:06:25] Very much.

[00:06:26] Should have based sort of private clients. I. So I spent a long time with justices. I looked after them before they had an office in Hong Kong. I looked after the the Hong Kong and Japanese business. And then we had a nother couple of guys who worked after the Singapore business. That was when Hong Kong was very different wine market. It is now, you know, when I was there going out there and travelling and there was 80 percent tax and I never got the luxury of working out there.

[00:07:07] When it went down to 40 and then they they abolished.

[00:07:12] And I mean, it was initially when I had a big client that who was the financial secretary who had an extraordinary collection of wine. And I said, well, what are we going to do about this, a set tax? And he said, well, you know, while I’m in charge, like, I can’t bring the tax down because it’s going to look suspicious.

[00:07:37] I think later on it got something to do with his home sort of building an extension or something, which they’re very strict. But he was he was a charming man and. But so, yeah, that was. So I spent a lot of time working on those clients. I then did.

[00:07:56] Well, let’s take a break. I, I just needed a change. I, she, I needed I’m sort of getting slightly bored of London and and I had an opportunity to go work for Emirates Airlines doing that, drink over that, looking after that export side within the regions. So the dry countries, diplomatic missions, the islands, you know, the Maltese and those places in Zanzibar and those sort of areas and hotel groups. And I was there for a year. It wasn’t actually how I envisaged it would be. It was it was it was out of my comfort zone. I enjoyed it. But it was a very different environment. And I sort of took the decision that, you know, I stay and, you know, not come back for a long time and really stick it out or had the opportunity to come back and work for good house and company us who very similar set up to just really breaks quite a lot of sort of refugees from just really Brits in terms of staff. I knew them well. And yeah, it was it was it was the right move. And so I’m doing very much. But it was so much more on the broking side than straight.

[00:09:21] Private clients is great. Great company, actually. So that was that. And then a few years ago, I took the plunge to start my own business. To say I was sick of the commute. And then luckily so I started my business, which is great. And then this opportunity with Dreweatts came up to work in tandem with it and completely separate. I keep buying the thing. If a client comes to me through Dreweatts, you know, I would never think all that could do for my company. You know, that it’s a clean break down the middle. So I still do private.

[00:10:00] I have the auction site on the streets of Southeast Asia. They they changed the market.

[00:10:09] Quite a major way. I remember. All right. Rights was going over to Hong Kong as an example. At the time, there were collapses. He just wanted to have ten thousand pound bosso at the time of the mine that a Romney concert. And he wants it placed above his fireplace. I said, well, what? Why do you want that? If you keep it, then you to put the fire on, it’s going to ruin it. I don’t care. It shows who I am, shows what I’m what I’m about, who I know. I’ve got access to stuff that my other, you know, colleagues or, you know, business rivals or whatever don’t have access. And I remember seeing this one article on China Daily USA, which was Show me your show me your Ferrari and I’ll show you my wine cellar. And again, just so much wealth was just being, you know, made, you know, the people making these private by citizen spending a million, two million U.S. dollars and then just filling up with a lot of fine wines. So and it still seems to be that way. Tastes do seem to have changed. Which companies? On to the next question. Like some see for ourselves, we’ve we’ve seen that the way markets have evolved considerably and in the time which you’ve been involved. Again, what changes have you’ve seen in terms of tastes? I guess, again, market used to be bought. I bought I bought I almost to a large degree. Have you seen much difference from beyond Bordeaux or would you say Bordeaux still king?

[00:11:43] Definitely. Bordeaux reigns supreme. And I think always will. It’s going to age. So I do think anything can knock it off its nuthatch. Nothing. You know, there’s the the only pretend to it’s thrown, but it’s such a small region. Comparison is the Tuscan wines. And they are trying to emulate Bordeaux anyway, so. Yeah, well the super Tuscans unfair on just realised that. But the Bordeaux blend is shown to the only people that I think you can. And they just don’t have the production. And that’s the thing with Bordeaux, is it? It it has the production. It does. And you know, when you’re looking at certainly the top end and if you look you’re looking at a first growth. And the volume now, what is it now? 10000 cases to normal vintage. There used to be used 21, 30, I think. 82 Laffite and the tool made 30, 35 miles. That’s right. But it’s still 10000 cases. A lot is a lot of wine. Of wine at that price point. Whereas a Californian equivalent would be five hundred cases in some cases. So Bordeaux will always be king because it has that critical mass. And I think, you know, with you know, that’s one of the reasons why not just because Bordeaux is board. But when it first took off in Asia, having that volume on the market allowed people to buy it. You know that. Which is why Burgundy didn’t take off so quickly when people were coming into the wine market. If there were any 30 cases available of something you didn’t really know much about, but you knew that the label was instantly recognisable. And the reputation was that much easier to go into that.

[00:13:45] But obviously, since we’ve seen burgundy prices skyrocket, go insane. I think in house prices, some instances, yeah.

[00:13:54] I mean, we put a a magnum of 85 riche Borg by Gire in the next election.

[00:14:05] And I saw one had sold at Sotheby’s last week or report last Mitali. It was from originally from Shiers original seller that was sold in 2012 or something. So the problem was fantastic. And that sold in Asia for me to house prices. Four hundred thirty eight thousand pounds.

[00:14:25] And that is house price. Yes, it is.

[00:14:29] And you know, so the prices have gone. But, you know, as you were saying before about the man with the thing on his mantelpiece saying this is what I’ve got. You know, if you buy a bottle of wine. Four hundred thirty five thousand pounds. I mean, then obviously, I you know, we’re in a you’re an important client of mine. I can tell you exactly how much you’re worth to me.

[00:14:57] Shop with a bottle of wine. In a subtle way. Absolutely. And in a classy way, too, of course. Yeah, of course.

[00:15:04] There’s nothing brash about that’s Natalie brash about it.

[00:15:06] So, you know, they’re they’re all. Yeah. I mean, there are some prices, if I can be, I think things like a lot of Premier Cruise. Now, I think that I think they’re expensive what they are. But my mind is still sort of 10 years ago, wine prices wise with Burgundy were a good borgo and should be 12 quid. No, no, no. Absolutely. But in terms of I mean, we’ve seen the changes. So many changes. So many changes.

[00:15:37] And but Bordeaux is still Ordos can feel.

[00:15:41] Right. Without question.

[00:15:42] Without without question. Okay. Now, you might not want to answer this, and that’s far enough Bialosky. Anyway, it was reported by the I Bloomberg South China Morning Post of a major financial outlets. The firm used to represent Emirates Vested. Half a billion dollars in the fine wine initiative.

[00:16:04] Know all about it. They’re all about it for sure.

[00:16:07] And 2005 with that when they first went with a blank cheque.

[00:16:10] Wow. Because they got a 2005 vintage. Right. It’s not bad. Starts off with a fiver.

[00:16:17] But what is their strategy? Purely okay. What is the best form we can serve on the plane or as it will say? Well, we can see that wine does have a decent appreciation year on year. You got, of course, the right price, brand representation, et cetera, et cetera. In your opinion, again, if you don’t want to come in, they need to. Are they looking at it from a purely consumption standpoint or do you think that they’re also looking at. Okay, well, 100 million has appreciates it. First, he foresees some less sell, some of that on maybe balance. The books with the losses were made through Psychoville 19, whatever. Yeah. That’s also use some of that money to replenish our sallerson.

[00:17:01] I can’t comment on what they’re doing now when I was there. And the reason why they bought the 05 vintage was was consumption. The only way to really sell it was on an aeroplane. So I can’t get rid of it. I mean, the volumes were extraordinary. I have to say, you know, I looked at the spreadsheet numerous times, valued it, some of it.

[00:17:25] I think there was always, you know, there was always an idea that if it could make money, I think, why not? But the volumes were. Yeah, they were mine. Like, they they went to a fire. They’d never. They must bought a little bit before here and there. But they came into Bordeaux in the 2005 vintage, sort of like, you know, in Latin writing three.

[00:17:52] I mean, they read it with their chequebooks open and. And but most me I think it really was it was it was to drink on the aeroplanes. You know, they saw the market there. They were also increasing. 05 was still relatively young for Emirates then. You know, Emirates didn’t know. I don’t know how big it is. Terms of planes flying these days compared to them. But but I remember once I was sort of tasked to go out, didn’t have they didn’t have things like Patris or anything like that run on their books. You know, they couldn’t even have a bigger cheque, but they still couldn’t break into that that’s or that sort of terrorist show. A lot of first grace and a lot of second grace and things. But yeah, I mean, was it impressive? But I was tasked to once on their inaugural flight from Emir.

[00:18:43] From from Dubai to New York non-stop.

[00:18:48] And they wanted to serve 82 Petreus in first class. That was there. You know, this is what’s the best way.

[00:18:57] Well, if you really want to make a eighty 82 patch, go crazy.

[00:19:04] So we bought didn’t have any patches in the sell off that we bought it from the UK and but every time I bought a case the price went up by eight percent I think. I can’t remember the exact figures show, you know, the three cases we bought, you know, Patreus. This is not an easy way. It was Delford. I can’t remember it. It was I mean, it probably looks cheap now. Yeah. Yeah. So they did buy, but that’s the sort they weren’t saving petrusich you two on every flight. But, you know, you could probably you’ll be certainly be getting on first class, you know, you’ll get a lot of grumpy costs, you get a lot of Lynch. Bowles was famous for Cathay Pacific, wasn’t it. That’s Lenth Lynch Barge got its name because it was always served and got his name. It got its name in Asia. Right. And they like it because it was it was served in Cathay first class. There was quite a small talk of me. But, you know, you would be drinking up to second grace, quality and kindness now. Yeah. I’m not sure. First, grace in first class. The first grace they had met may have been earmarked for dessert.

[00:20:14] Just little quick sign. I mean, do wines taste? Because, again, it’s a common question that gets asked to me when I mention this to its clients. But the wines taste differently on a on the plain when they’re competitive.

[00:20:30] No, I do feel like they do. Yeah. So they do fit.

[00:20:33] I don’t know. I think it’s. Yeah, perhaps they do. I’m not sure.

[00:20:37] I think when we can start find out France, we should say first class.

[00:20:41] And I find that yeah. We find that there is an easy way, the easy way to find that out. Exactly. A lot of it is probably that you fully get served in tiny little glass. Exactly half muscles.

[00:20:51] Yeah, there’s probably an argument that does. I’m not saying I have heard it, but it’s not like I sort of dug into a lot of things, said take off the list for the USA.

[00:21:02] Definitely. Definitely.

[00:21:03] All right. So let’s fast forward to John and Juris. Yeah. You did touch upon it. Besides your your your business before you decided to have this opportunity to work with jurors. But how did the opportunity come about?

[00:21:20] It came about purely because a client of mine, Duritz, was going through a lot of changes. They’d just been bought, bought by a company called God Jones. And I think there were big staff shake ups. And I think they were the business was changing and they didn’t have a wine specialist. And I think at that stage, I think hed left it in a way is gone. My client find out 20, enter some wine into trips. And they came back and said, oh, we don’t really know what’s going on with wine department at the moment.

[00:21:54] So he said when you just give him ring and see if there’s anything. And, you know, I went around, business can be up and down and school fees and things were looming. And I thought, you know what? Nice bit of extra income, if I can do it. And I had actually long before just Reen is just just straight out to university, just waiting, looking for ravelled I want to do. I did work Christi’s for a bit just to help him out.

[00:22:27] So, so I knew and I like the auction world and I knew it. I thought you know what. I called them up and I said, I understand you need a bit of help at the moment, sorting out sort of the mess that was left behind in the wine department. And I didn’t put it like that. And they said it. I mean, it was the easiest, quickest interview I’ve ever had in my life. And so I got there. And Diane, who I worked with, is just absolutely fantastic. And I think we just we just looked to put it happened over last year as if it got us so much potential here. And with the support of Joe Johns and there’s so much potential here, but we just need to sort out this mess. So we and I didn’t even know if I was just gonna stay two days, two weeks, two months, whatever turned into whatever was three years.

[00:23:18] And I just it just sort of reminded me how much I like the auction. Well. Yes. And it was I’d likes sorting out something that needed sorting out. That’s what got really enjoyment. So we’ve sort of hopefully turned it round into a a proper shelf wine department within one mile.

[00:23:41] A couple of questions down the line that we’re going to get answered on. And that’s going to be a reflection of, again, a lot of the hard work you’ve been put to then.

[00:23:47] Yeah, but before we get to that point, I’ll see. You mentioned you love the auction room. It is it is a magical place, magical place. And it can be a very high energy, ambitious environment. What is it you enjoy about conduction auctions?

[00:24:06] I, I know, actually, I’d like.

[00:24:11] I mean, I, I’ve never conducted any other auction apart from a wine auction. I quite like that. There’s something about being in control of.

[00:24:25] I don’t know. I just. I’ve never thought about. I enjoy it. I think it’s a real honour to be up there. I think it’s it’s it’s it’s a nice office. It’s a great opportunity be given to do my skill, to have you know, it’s you can teach yourself, you know, it’s good for listening. It’s good for your maths.

[00:24:45] Yes. The numbers are always good for me.

[00:24:50] And I think it’s yeah, it’s it’s sort of fair to count massive good fun.

[00:24:56] It’s the class of as well then. Yeah. Because. Tonight, kind of money, they want to fill those times. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

[00:25:05] You cannot be afraid of of dealing with large figures from these people because, like you said, it’s not confidence that gives them the confidence to want to know that they’re buying from the right person and the right firm. So I imagine you’ve you’ve definitely been the pass of some of some of these famous bidding wars that we’re all the customers. I say we but people in the industry are accustomed to. Ha. How can you sense when there’s going to be a bidding war? Is it. What is the sourcing clients? How do you know, as you know, big spender? Or there could be like a friendly rivalry between sellers and clients. How was it when you know that there was a certain wine or wines which has been on the waiting list where a client says he? Right. Mark, we’re off to on a shovel blong two thousand or Luffler nine 10, I say. But, you know, you’ve got several other bidders interested and you know, they’re going to be there on that day. Can you sense it from that moment onwards?

[00:26:03] Or is it really when I think you said it from the book you see on the book and the bids on the book? You know, obviously this year there’s been no auctions in the room. Everything everything has been, although we can hold an online auction like a life auction like this, it’s all been via the Internet and commission bids set for this for this sort of top hand wines. You know, the the actual the real the bidding war does take place on the book and online. And the room bidding, certainly at Duritz tends to be much more for drinking wines. I eat a good Bordeaux, Schonberg and shellfish. So things I’ve never experienced been in a room taken in an auction where you’ve got, you know, two people trying to, you know, go, go, go.

[00:27:01] I mean, I’ve been in auctions when they. That has never held one myself. Far, far.

[00:27:07] But I think there is a there is always that certainly that case, the two people who know each other can be that element of it.

[00:27:20] And certainly in sort of when you do evening auctions, when there’s a little bit of drink flowing, that is probably that’s yes.

[00:27:30] That’s what happens when the matter at an eleven o’clock in the morning, on the very day.

[00:27:36] That’s a bit more like an affinity for that. All right.

[00:27:42] But I’d love to be a part of it one day once we get back to normal and we can. Know we’ve got many plans when it comes to auctions, the wine auction. So over the next couple of years. So hopefully we’ll be doing more of those sort of evening things that perhaps we can people’s.

[00:27:59] All right. So only last month. Andrew, it’s I don’t know how you guys manage still here, you know, but you are able to acquire a bottle of Screaming Eagle. Mighty nice. Say, I believe from when I said what I know is the first thing she ever made was one of only free one of the free bottles available in the global market. How did you how did you want to get that number one? But also, what was what was the sound like for that? Well, that’s for sale.

[00:28:29] It was it was fantastic that that bottle. It’s it. They are tricky to sell screaming eagles. You know, they are they have that price. They’re the sort of things that you might see in hedonism. Yes. I think they bought a Magnum for the same wine for forty thousand quid sort of thing that you will see on a shelf there for crazy money. To me, I think we value to sort of seven, eight, nine thousand pounds for that bottle. I always believe those things. You have to aim for the stars for the first time and you might get lucky. We didn’t sell it. That auction, actually. Sadly, we sold we had a bottle of white which sold two and a half thousand long. So, yeah, that’s the 2013, which is that first vintage of seven blocks to make one barrel of the stuff. So it’s Rovera says it was a bottle of the saving you all. But I did want to sort of aim for the stars with the red. It’s going into our next auction actually at a bit less, sort of four to five, which I think was probably the right price. But, you know, I didn’t. I didn’t. Well, I. I didn’t want to undersell it, not having sold a lot of screaming eagle in my life. Absolutely. Ready. Set. You know, for people who don’t know it, it’s it’s the cult cabernet sauvignon yourself from Napa Valley and.

[00:29:59] And 92 is, what, just the flagship motorcycle car owned by Stan Cranky. Chrome car. Nice. It’s marvellous for sure. I’m even seeing while on a wine spectator school, albeit it was a charity auction, but that was a I believe it was. It may have even been a car bomb is a 60s or only was expensive whatever.

[00:30:22] Sold half a million dollars for a road. Crazy even for charity auction.

[00:30:27] That’s a lot of money for one. So, yeah, I’d have to say skip to that space. All right. Fair enough. But some. Okay.

[00:30:34] So for yourself, your past personal preference, is there a particular vintage and brand that you would love to. Aside from the. When I say that you would love to get your hands on to have the pleasure of selling. So that’s something you can say on your on your CV if you wish. Right. I’ve sold this.

[00:30:52] I like a domain that a Romney can see 45 or moves on 45 or Lappin 82 or shovel blong 47. Are there any of those that lodges those examples? But any of his other voice felt right. I would love to be able to deal with that.

[00:31:08] Well, as you know, several 40s, I’d love to find a perfect case of Chavel 47. I don’t think they exist. Actually, I’m not convinced. I mean, that would be the Holy Grail because you actually see 47 Chavel pops up quite a bit. Not chassé bottles. Normally Mirch and bottled and that they’re never a particularly good condition. You know, they’re they’re not as rare as people think. 47 Chavel. It’s something I’d love to try. I mean, that would be something quite that bad. I just don’t think you get that. It just doesn’t exist. I think where would you like to sort of really delve into. When we got some 45 coming up in the next Excel, I mean, that’s a vintage that has that sort of romantic notion to use as a celebration of vintage. But I think she did say that Chevron 47, I think if I could find some of that, I would be, which is without question, in great condition. And people would wear the right provenance. I think when you hear get a bidding war, something like that, all sorts of records. Yeah, definitely. Whatever the debate is, whatever the chateau have tucked away that they will never it’ll never come out. And it’ll be history. Yeah. Yeah. That’s part of their history. I’d love to know how much that got if they have.

[00:32:42] Well, you never know. No, no, no. I mean that to me is the iconic wine.

[00:32:47] And it was meant to still be young.

[00:32:50] Now, this is also a good few years. And I just got big scores and big reputations. I see. But I’m all right.

[00:32:58] So I was nineteen hundred Margaux. If you could find if you could find something.

[00:33:05] Yeah. I’d love to try. Yeah. Of these about the classic they want though. Yeah I remember. I think there was even norten several years gone on. Lafitte’s already from the start of some of 18, 70s and 80, 90 fives and whatnot and the likes of the historic and people would buy it from that standpoint. And I even like shipwrecked champagne and things. And that’s, that’s a quote.

[00:33:28] And that’s the beauty of auction. You know, those are the things that come your way that wouldn’t necessarily go, you know, ship, you know, things that been under the Barents Sea for however long and. Yeah, exactly. And.

[00:33:41] But then as you talk about that, that’s sort of going off tangent, I think, Margot, and champagne houses. But I think Chateau Margaux not only. They are experimenting screw caps, Astra, but they’re also experimenting with ageing that wide underwater.

[00:33:59] Oh, yeah. Well, once bottle that I’ve ever heard. Yeah. Actually comes the temperature. Well yeah. That should be interesting to see before they put the labels. Yeah.

[00:34:08] Yeah. Hopefully the provenance. Okay.

[00:34:13] In terms of in terms of, you know, countries we mentioned of course, Southeast Asia. And I’ve seen a number of your auctions held in Newbury, London, et cetera. What country, in your opinion, is leading the way in terms of buying up the prime lots of these ultra wines. And also what’s been the most surprising location of any recent buys? And what I me but I will be like a country like winning bid was won in Brazil or in Mexico.

[00:34:44] Well, Brazil is your first we we’ve been selling to Brazil, funnily enough, which in recent auctions in the last three auctions, we’ve had more more clients coming from Brazil I’m sorry, Syngenta, that they Brazilian. I guess this might be an ominous the actual Aboriginals and they have been shipped out to Brazil. They’re not keeping them here. They’re getting the US is always massive. Yeah, yeah. People forget about it. But it is I mean, you know, the US market well, but it is a huge market that, you know, most a lot of UK merchants don’t do a huge amount with it, with the US auction houses do. Yes. But they I don’t think people read. But, you know, you the UK has always looked towards looked east rather than west. And you. Yeah, I’m not saying that there was no trade show in the UK and the US, but predominantly, predominantly, they’ve always looked, they’ve looked east. I remember one very well known merchant. I think he did East a huge amount of business in America that was we’ll both know who they are. That and the market dropped off in America and they replaced it and then never looked back with Macao, but didn’t bother going back to America. Health Crisis kept their business embracing area. So America’s I think, you know, there’s lots of Asia will always be. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Interested in why I think China has been a more difficult market, I think, than it had been. I think they people got their fingers burnt in the 2010 vintage, bought massively. And when there’s a lot of cancelled orders now that whole of the world, Singapore is a great market for everything. You know, they have such an eclectic taste and it’s had much the high taxes in place like Vietnam. It’s just holding that back. What’s going to happen? Same with Australia. And they have their own wine. India. Yes. 300 percent tax. And they’re making the right one. They don’t have the restaurant culture that it’s just people can talk about. I bet there’s some very wealthy Indians with some wonderful salads. But who knows how that. So the actual you know, none of the big countries is sending the. And I have made any real indents into the fine wine market. It is still Asia. We to Asia. That’s China. Hong Kong. Yeah. Yeah. And then a lot of countries obviously will have small multiple big buyers, but not not enough to really sort of make a huge M m selling things. But I think the US market is still linerboard, I think would always remain king.

[00:37:54] Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Forget just how rich rich are you. Wealthy America. Absolutely. They love to spend it and they like to spend it all.

[00:38:04] So and that’s a market. You know, we’re doing more with America. And. Yeah.

[00:38:11] So that it’s the UK is a good market. That’s a very good, you know. London still like to think is that is the centre of the fine wine trade in the world. Some might argue with that, but it and put it put up some pretty good reasons. But I think we’re still a I think we’re I think in terms of how we deliver it.

[00:38:30] I think we understand the culture a lot better.

[00:38:32] Yeah. You know, the Americans are more in there. And so their wines, they’re also there’s the bid as the Bull Borbon says, the whisky’s you know, MSE is still socky and it’s still, you know, other whisky’s Japanese whiskies and whatever else. But we we do it best. We’ve got a history of then a Best Buy some. All right. Some fun quickfire questions and then we’ll have to wrap things on it. OK, so I’m going to give you individual regions and you give one way and you can even give a vintage year from that region. I’d love to drink before you kick the bucket. Not to be too grim, but hey. OK.

[00:39:07] So when it starts off board, I this is bucket list stuff. I guess I fuck it.

[00:39:15] Well we’re where we would go shovel forty seven to me that it could seventy five maybe all that could be shit. I just wanted. Yeah I wanted to show forty seven properly to shop.

[00:39:26] All right. A reason I know you love bargain. Yeah.

[00:39:31] Well I just shabbily I love Qabbani. I yeah. I just think that’s must have go to waste. Right.

[00:39:37] Great. Why as well. It is. Okay. Run, run, run, run, run. Oh no don’t be.

[00:39:45] We go la la would be a shot enough to pop or for a mature shot nerf I think mature but it’s good to be mature. Yes. Seventy eight.

[00:39:55] They sort of on us. Yes. That’s the guy to. Yeah. They’ve got some really expensive ceisler.

[00:40:01] But yeah that’s great size. So I say Grand Lionhead.

[00:40:05] Right. I mean I like everyday roads. I think they’re beautiful. You get a good way. Well it was well made of riches so importing one’s from planned to do which is a sort of small binda indicator. Right. And it’s real freshness to it. Yeah, those are. I think if you get the right vineyard and cater right. And without some of the made. Yeah.

[00:40:30] All right. Grew up in like Burgundy. Yeah. Right. Grow in their own. Yeah. Well definitely champagne.

[00:40:38] Not a massive champagne drinker. Best when I had the other day. The other day. Best one I’ve had recently. My brother bought it was Dom REO, not 98. Wow. And it is sensational but it was sensational. Was a couple of Christmas. Go ahead. That was my brother and that was the most memorable champagne I’ve had for a long time. I know. Great. It’s quite soporific. Champagne.

[00:41:01] All right. Fair enough. Each their own. But I can.

[00:41:04] Tuscany, Tuscany. Tuscany, Tuscany.

[00:41:08] Oh yeah. Or Italy as a whole.

[00:41:11] PiedMont Corvino wines I think is fantastic. Tuscany.

[00:41:22] In terms of.

[00:41:26] I like Selye. Actually, Salina’s is a very good one. Yeah, Ferring, that one. Yeah, if I haven’t heard much but when I about it, let’s see. What about Sasko 85. Had it. Had it.

[00:41:37] And it’s really good. I mean, I had it when it was a quarter of the price was still very expensive

[00:41:44] I had it I went to a wine tasting at Christie’s Sanskar one many years ago, probably 20 years ago. And they were showing it then. And me, it was one of these wines that I told the 85 says a car. It was one of my fish. People should buy it when they saw it in turn. I think I’ve been proved right. And how much it is now. What is it?

[00:42:07] Ten thousand, four, six or something I really like. You look a lot more. You look at more. I would say twelve to fifteen thousand. Depend on country location. Hadn’t ism got from there. It’s fast ponds I believe. Hong Kong you’re looking 25000 pounds. Yeah. So I have six twelve bottles and that’s dependent on March and. Yeah. The supplier as well. So it’s a lot of money. A lot of money. Yeah. Considering it probably costs only a couple hundred pounds back then.

[00:42:32] So as you can probably if you, if you do your, your research, some of the recent vintages of classic higher up there and they won’t be far off that quality of 85 when that and you know they’re probably twenty sixteen actually.

[00:42:47] That’s the one. Yeah.

[00:42:49] Giving up 100 points a that would be twelve hundred quid a case now so. Yeah. They’re running that too actually you know. So it’s easy to look out for those. So it’s definitely.

[00:42:58] And they’ve broken through. We’ve got something like Sanskar have broken through that into that market of they have a brand massive hand. And it was they bought a blend. Yes.

[00:43:13] But they’re very well organised. For sure. For sure. All right. So last couple of questions before we wrap things up then. You’ve just finished a long, tough but successful day in the auction room. What’s your go to food and wine pairing for that evening?

[00:43:32] Go to wine pairing to be got. What would it be?

[00:43:40] Would it be like I like a nice I like ice cream.

[00:43:43] It’s great if I go for like a decent, quiet, quiet, simples in that respect. But give me a decent steak and a decent boss of a classic board. I see it. I like a young board. I you know, I could 2015. Yeah. It’s usually in 2009 2010 with that on a steak or even if I’m in the big glamorous estates it’s ah give me some chips.

[00:44:04] That’d be simple isn’t it. Yeah. Good to be. Simple food. Yeah. Tough day in the office. Don’t want the needs to be done. It’s all right darling. Can you please get some steak on. Get the chips on. Yeah. Maybe in my salad I’ll bring home a bottle. Yeah. I don’t know for me that’s I’m sort of with you on that.

[00:44:22] I would have, I have had one the other day.

[00:44:26] It’s still my favourite favourite. She’s Grauwe and Burgundy. I think that’s got to be it.

[00:44:31] Does that feel good. Parent grandparent. Attention for miles around and I’ve got to tell my wife. Yeah, I just got it.

[00:44:43] I treat myself to one grouse a year and I could probably go to stretch to two, but I would think it might spoil my annual.

[00:44:51] Yeah. Annual might. All right. That’s probably. Yeah.

[00:44:55] And if you give yourself younger advice, give your younger self advice. Rochfort Go back inside. What would it be fruitful for.

[00:45:04] Wine. Food in the wine.

[00:45:06] It just is like a just as luck as a whole. Yeah. Maybe for for a career perspective or for wine.

[00:45:13] If I was telling someone going to the wine trade it would be take as many notes as you possibly can and just listen and and listen as much as you can to people. And I hear a lot of and I may be like this, I’m sure someone can correctly tell me I was. But I meet some young Y merchants who think they know a lot about wine.

[00:45:44] And I certainly don’t know a lot about wine. I know as much as I’ve learnt so far. It changes every minute. Yes, I think it’s to be it.

[00:45:54] I think with anything in life, be really humble. Great. I know there’s people who say no, you want to be swaggy, thanks, but I think you need to be humble. Yes. And life is just a little bit easier that way. You say you love them.

[00:46:12] Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah.

[00:46:15] And then lastly, if you if you were not involved in wine, full stop enough to wine, go back to when you was ten years old and you then trying to Talbert’s or Schussler Fee. What career do you think you’d be involved and what career would you like to be involved in if you wouldn’t?

[00:46:33] I know I have said I will. I have I do. So I think I’d like I’d quite like to have gone into the sort of the the diplomatic corps. I don’t think I would have got the results, the act. I don’t think I could have got that the exams did. But it’s something that I did think about. You know, it was something that I thought about all the way through school. But I think I needed better. I’m I’m not very good at exams.

[00:47:07] I work like this. Yeah. I’ve felt that last hurdle. It’s right for yourself.

[00:47:11] Yeah. But it’s been. I’m very pleased that when the wine industry I think it’s it does give you a lot of opportunities. Like everything at it, it has its it has some major faults and, you know, whatever career you get into it. But it’s giving me really interesting opportunities. But I think is I think you could be with why you’ve got to be entrepreneurial. And I’d, I’d like to be a. I do think I’m a natural entrepreneur in any way to who is but who is. You learn as you go. But I think you if you go into the wine business, you do need that. A bit of an entrepreneurial flair floated down there.

[00:47:52] Good advice. That’s great advice. No saké. Well, Mark, I will let you go and grab your by six. All right. Good luck with the Stream League OSFI next time round.

[00:48:02] Yeah. The next caution’s in November. So I’ll let you know what we’ve got. And when they saw, accepts and fly sport, I maybe that’s what we can of do office. Definitely need to do it every day.

[00:48:14] No. No economy mate. Exactly.

[00:48:18] You can have podcasts you know, for now as well. Barça. We’ll see. That’s good. Thank you very much. When he’s gone and all of us. Enough. Good stuff.

There’s no denying that we are living in interesting times but it’s at times like this that local businesses can recognise the benefits of working closely with one another.

Cult & Boutique’s Managing Director Enzo Giannotta paid a visit to local boutique hotel and restaurant, Bingham Riverhouse, to meet with their Restaurant & Bar Manager, Ricardo Barros and discuss how regional expressions and changing attitudes are helping to shape their wine lists.

Silverheart Pictures were on hand to film the conversation and the result is a laid back look at Ricardo & Enzo’s selection processes and their drive to introduce new experiences to their clientele.

We were recently lucky enough to try an interesting wine from Adelaide Hills producer Bird In Hand. The 2010 ‘Nest Egg’ Cabernet Sauvignon was part of a small parcel of rare library vintages made available through the UK’s Majestic to raise funds for the South Australian County Fire Service (SACFS).

Cult Boutique Wine ManagementThe Nest Egg label is reserved for the most outstanding wines of the vintage and is popular with collectors.

Just 9,696 individually numbered bottles of the 2010 Cabernet Sauvignon were produced, using small, open fermenting tanks and matured for 18 months in French oak. The resulting wine is deep red in colour with intense violets, cassis, and aniseed with a long-lasting finish.

Sadly, wildfires are becoming a harrowing annual occurrence across some of the world’s leading wine-producing regions.

The Adelaide Hills region where Bird In Hand is based lost around a third of their vines with some producers suffering a total loss of their properties.


All purchases of Adelaide Hills wine will help producers to stay viable through this challenging period for our community

Andrew Nugent, Bird In Hand


Andrew Nugent, founder of Bird In Hand said “We were very fortunate. Our Shiraz and Sauvignon Blanc have been affected, as have the grounds of the Bird In Hand Estate. We are extremely grateful for the outstanding work of our team and the heroic local firefighters. All purchases of Adelaide Hills wine will help producers to stay viable through this challenging period for our community”

In February we spoke with Barossa Valley grape grower Adrian Hoffman who gave us an insight into the devastation that South Australia has suffered and his views on the effects of global warming. “It comes down to the management of our natural resources as well, 200 years ago the Aboriginals would have lit a lot of small fires every year, clearing out different areas then you wouldn’t have these big wildfire blazes as well” said Adrian.

“I’m not a climate change sceptic but its not fair to blame one country, everyone can do their own little bit to help” he said, adding “We’d be fairly close to carbon-neutral on our property, thats a big credential for a lot of wineries – knowing when a bottle of wine arrives at your place that all the thought about the environmental impact and the carbon footprint of that product has been taken into consideration”

Cult Boutique Wine ManagementCalifornia’s latest battle is currently being played out with huge losses across the board. The list of affected properties grows on a daily basis and we can only hope that things are brought under control soon to stem the region’s loss of life, property and businesses and wildlife.

Majestic’s limited stocks of Nest Egg have long sold out, with all profits going to SACFS. However, if you would still like to help you could follow Andrew Nugent’s suggestion and buy any Adelaide Hills wine.

Alternatively, Adrian Hoffmann kindly suggested donating to the regional Salvation Army and Red Cross.

By Spencer Leat

Winemaker John Worontschak visits The Cult & Boutique Show to talk about Litmus Wines, Ginking and his global adventures in winemaking.  Having worked in just about every winemaking region you could think of over the years, John had some great experiences to share with us.

Full auto-transcript

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (00:00):

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Cult & Boutique Show, it has been a while, but, um, you know, good things come to those who wait. And fortunately, today we have with us a very influential guest within the wine, uh, world not just in England in and Europe, but internationally as you will find out, um, he just joined us this morning. Um, he’s in the middle of crushing his grapes from his English vineyard Denbies. Um, if I could present this time, none other than Mr. John Worontschak, John. Good morning. How are you?

John Worontschak

Hi, well, thanks.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management
Good. Good. So obviously with regards to yourself, you were born and raised in Australia and you started your wine experiences in Australia. Could you tell us a bit more about that?

John Worontschak (00:43):

Uh, yeah. Well, I was born in Adelaide to a Ukrainian parents. They, uh, came out after world war II, fortunately, and, um, I had a pretty normal Australian upbringing you’re surfing and scuba diving and all that sort of thing. And, uh, when I was at university, went to university of Adelaide to do geology and, um, fortunately there was a little place called Petaluma up the road. Um, and I got a weekend and holiday job there, um, which was probably the first of a series of very fortuitous events because, you know, the two guys there, Brian Crozer and Dr. Tony Jordan sort of icons, you know, revolutionized the Australian wine industry and really said, I think, you know, the world on fire.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (01:25):

Okay. And, um, through what era was, I believe I was, it was seventies, eighties around that time.

John Worontschak (01:31):

Well, my first job was at Petaluma. I was hand labelling bottles for the 1976 Chardonnay, Petaluma Chardonnay. Um, and so I was there for the 1977 vintage, which I believe was the first or the second vintage that, uh, Brian Crozer had done there with the Petaluma label.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (01:50):

Wow. Okay. And obviously with, with, regardless of the culture of the seventies and eighties, uh, in wine and in specifically Australia, what was it like say compared to the rest of the world at that time?

John Worontschak (02:02):

Yeah, at that stage, I didn’t really know a lot about the rest of the world, but, um, uh, the Australian wine industry was, uh, was in tumultuous change at the time. Um, most of the wine makers were, um, family, um, untrained know scientifically, um, and then to start working at Petaluma with Crozer and Jordan who they set up the Walker school of theology. And at that stage, it was only two places you could go. Um, Waga, which was a degree course in Roseworthy, which wasn’t a degree course. And then I thought, because working at pedal Limerick, all wineries were like that. And looking back on it, it was so incredibly prestigious when you could, you could eat off the floor. It was, it was, he spent all of your time cleaning and using things like a sloped yeast, because there was no bike biotech in those days, there was no dry yeast or something.

John Worontschak (02:53):

So there was sleep sleeping. Their own yeast strains are two was the big one in those days. Um, and they doing crazy things like fermenting re you know, keeping reasoning cold until the winter and fermenting in the winter, very clean juice. They had all these axioms, which produced the best wine in the world, as I thought at the time. Um, uh, some of which now seem pretty outdated and pretty simple, but just love, very clean juice protecting from oxygen and very cool. Fermentations um, and then just being, as I say, fastidious in every single aspect of the winemaking process from a scientific

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (03:29):

Basis. Yes. Alright. Very interesting there. And, uh, obviously from Navy decided to go traveling, uh, I believe you’ve traveled for around six years doing ventures in California, France and Australia. When did I begin was on the 18th,

John Worontschak (03:44):

I ended up going to Wagga and because Crozer sort of suggested it. Um, and so I spent there until getting the wine making degree, um, until 84 and I did a vintage, I did about 18 months, two years at Campbell’s winery again. I mean, at the time you can imagine it was in rather Glen and working port and Tokay and musket. And again, surrounded by icons. We used to go to a place called mrs. Hoppies, um, every second Tuesday in coral. And there’d be, um, yeah, that’d be bill chambers, McMorris legends. We’d have like fishing trips for starters and steak and chips.

John Worontschak (04:24):

Maybe there’s sort of a 90 year old musket. Why? Well finish off the evening. It was Halloween days. And so I did that and then a few sort of vintage jobs that you lumber and Penfolds, what have you. And then I decided to start traveling. It was 85 months, first vintage in California at clouded war. Again, I didn’t realize it was an iconic kind of winery. Um, but with John Holly was a winemaker there. Um, and you know, that stage, it wasn’t hugely different from the Australian industry, um, much less studious, um, than, than Crozer the Crozer was in, in, in terms of monitoring everything, but still making some pretty good wines for the time. Now though, would have been, that’d be considered over Oaked and in those days it was pretty exciting.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (05:11):

Um, well, when you was going between or from California to France Australia, was there any significant differences that you notice in terms of their approach to wine or their wine making skills or their attitude or philosophy, how specific wines or wines in general should be made and who should consume them, et cetera? I guess the first real taste.

John Worontschak (05:32):

So I had a very different culture was the 85 winter harvest, or the sorry, the 85 Northern hemisphere harvest in, um, a Hugh girls in Alsace. Okay. Again, Johnny Hugo, another icon, I seem to have landed and all these places where there was a where there was some, some pretty interesting characters. Um, and so, uh, I did two vintages that the Hugo’s working with Mark Hugo, interestingly, he had just done an unfinished of indigenous Australia and he came over and changed all the wine, making a few girls. Similarly, he fell in love with a process of very cold, clean fermentations and aromatic yeast strains. And what have you, which nobody liked. So he, so he went back to back to the old, old ways and eventually, which seemed to make more wines with more sort of velocity and more character. But yeah, doing this, those two harvests that a few girls gave me a taste of sort of, sort of European ideas and starting, just starting on the road to thinking, well, maybe just maybe we don’t know everything.

John Worontschak (06:34):

Uh, you know, when I, you know, when I left, I thought, well, that was it. I sort of knew it. No one in the old world had a clue what was going on. So wines were funky and strange. So having, but then tasting some of the you, so the older Hugo ones with Mark you go, yes, I think, well, actually there’s some characters here that are really interesting. I sort of, you know, and then having some nice Vonage tardy from, from years gone by was also pretty, pretty special, good experience plus, and so I guess then from there I traveled, I did six or six years, I think I’m just doing hemisphere hopping and traveling with traveling around the place. After, after close by in California, I came to UK just as Australians do. Um, I met my current wife and then we saw we started traveling.

John Worontschak (07:22):

So we did six years. I worked at Penfolds for three years in Australia and gender and Loxton and the Prosser again, picking up invaluable experience in doing the Northern hemisphere and in between we’d stop in India or China or Eastern Europe or somewhere to have a bit of a holiday. Um, and then in 1998, I came across a chat by the name of John Layton who had an English vineyard called the Thames Valley vineyard. And that was in Russia. And so I was working in London, temping, and indeed with him. Okay. Okay. Which of my first taste of English one. Wow. I, wasn’t very nice.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (08:03):

I can imagine. Cause today, obviously, you know, with your wines in particular, you can tell the very refined and, you know, up to where they need to be in terms of quality, you know, for sure. And compared to what it would have been in the early nineties. Whoa, what, what would the English wine tastes like back in the early nineties?

John Worontschak (08:21):

Well, there’s the old adage, of course. How many men does it take to drink a bottle of English wine, three to hold him down? Um, so, uh, they were the ones who were awful. They were, um, generally very green. Um, and, and, and, and, and bitter, um, that was sweetened often oxidized. They were sweetened up with a Swiss reserve and put in a hot bottles with dramatic labels. Uh, and generally, you know, when I first got here, I bought a whole bunch of them and, uh, to try to find out what, what the story was and couldn’t get anything out of it though. So I went to New York state to have a look cause they were, they were a bit hit, but I mean, for sure to see again, the serendipity, I, um, you know, I managed to get, uh, into the English wine industry, um, at, at, at a stage where there’s not a lot of competition in terms of quality.

John Worontschak (09:09):

Uh, and I introduced my quite simple and basic Australian wine making techniques and which has been clean called fermentation, as I said before. And, um, and just started winning everything, gold Brown trophy look five, six years in a row. And, you know, uh, it was really exciting times. And that was when, uh, I guess, you know, I got a lot of publicity, you know, international as well. It hadn’t been frustrated and film crews coming out and saying, what’s going on in England. I mean, every few years in England, there’s a re you know, there’s the emergence of English wine. That was probably a second or third time. It was, you know, it, it has emerged. Um, and, uh, so that was pretty exciting times and really interesting. I set up a, a small company called, um, harvest wine group, uh, and, uh, consulted for 13 vineyards and, and, and, and, and contract wine made at the Thames Valley vineyard.

John Worontschak (09:59):

Um, and then set up a little company called harvest one group, which was a, which was a marketing concern. So we actually got these 13 vineyards wines into a lot of shops, like threshers and a lot of places that don’t exist anymore. Um, uh, and we, and we did well there, but, um, what the problem turned out to be was they just sat on the shelf and we had no ability or capability of helping them get consumed by the consumer. So although it was positive in terms of getting distribution and we didn’t actually sell very much wine to people. Okay. Okay. You mentioned obviously, and you’ve touched upon the, um, coming over to the UK and that’s the way you met your wife and eventually you assessed down in the UK, uh, around [inaudible] we set up the harvest, uh, wine consultancy or UK wine consultancy at Sam’s Valley vineyards.

John Worontschak (10:53):

You know, how that opportunity to come across. Uh, how did you find Julia is there to benefit you? So, um, because of the publicity and the quality of the wines we were producing for, for Thames Valley vineyard and for, um, you know, for our, for our contract clients, um, I got, uh, some, some notoriety and then started tasting for wine magazine and getting a bit more involved in the London scene. So again, very fortunately I ended up in London, which is, you know, a place where you can really learn about wine. It was, uh, it was very eye opening at the time. Um, and so I was there for 10 years or so, but, um, in 1993 was the first of my, um, flying wine making experiences. And so I went to the Czech Republic, um, um, to make some Bryn of Atlanta and some Blaufrankisch for Tescos. And in those days they put winemaker’s name on the label. Okay. Um, so that was the first one. So that was in October 93. Um, and I’ve been pretty much traveling nonstop since then, um, and a lot for Tesco’s in the early days. Um, and then through contacts that started consulting to wineries around the world in terms of production. Uh, and I’ve been doing that ever since until a lockdown.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (12:16):

And you made a couple of interesting,

John Worontschak (12:17):

The point is though, in terms of how you’ve been traveling around the world, um, and you’re in some very historic, traditional Y making countries such as, uh, Moldova, and there’s some very unique why making countries such as, uh, Mexico, Israel, so on and so forth. How did those opportunities come about? Was that something that you saw as a challenge, like he may have done with, you know, producing your English wines back in the nineties, or was that something you as approach to the bow and you fought, I like a challenge. I could put these wines on the map. Let me show you what I’m capable of. Yeah, I, to be fair, I have been involved in pretty much most regions in Italy and France and Germany as well. I’m a bit in Spain. Um, but, uh, I think for whatever reason, I’ve become sort of poster boy for, uh, strange places, which again, it’s worked to my favor in many ways because, uh, for instance, uh, I went to South Africa in 94 just after Mandela, um, won the presidency.

John Worontschak (13:28):

And that was really interesting. Again, going, you know, learning about cultures of place. I really love South Africa. It’s a beautiful country. Um, but at the time, because of apartheid, they just were comparing themselves amongst themselves. They had no international perspective. Um, and so again, you could go into a country and make big changes. And so, you know, wines were tasted totally for it in those days. They were somehow fixated on, um, sort of very bitter extracted peanut Taj that you had to put in the fridge to, to drink a cold and to watch that, um, I’ve been going to South Africa ever since, and just recently stopped and, um, to watch the evolution to where they are now, which is, you know, they know exactly what they’re doing for the forefront of, uh, interesting wine styles and definitely know that they are the young wine makers and they’re just the zoo crew and doing fantastic things. Yes, that was good. And then, so Russia as well, I got, I went to Russia in 2002 for the first time still working out there in 2000. You couldn’t imagine.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (14:33):

No, that’s fine. Yeah. Yeah.

John Worontschak (14:35):

I mean, they’re just undrinkable. I mean, to the point where, you know, the first thing I did was to measure the dissolved oxygen levels in the wine. I know like nine milligrams, eight and nine milligrams per liter, which I didn’t know was possible. That’s super saturated, right? So all the winemakers used to drink wines out of tank cause they still weren’t too bad once in bottle, that’d be totally knackered. And the whole concept of tasting, I mean, no one spent any wine out and I was always sort of salami and cheese during wine tastings. And, um, and then just their, their ability to talk nonsense was sort of this wine has got flowers and petals of you and it’s just naked undrinkable. Um, and again, so to, to go in there and then I started working at a place called ms. Kako in novel risk.

John Worontschak (15:17):

Um, uh, and we just, again, like in England, which are making wind, Aaron’s going, what’s going on there, this tastes normal. So this tastes okay. Currently I’m working in a place called fan of [inaudible], which is a 30,000 ton winery. And the owner, one of the owners, Peter, a musician, he I’m very dedicated to quality and we’re making some really good wines, not just okay wines, but really good wines and, you know, beating a lot of these little boutiques owned by the oligarchs, all the friends of food and, you know, in open competition within a 30,000 ton winery with like sort of three or 4,000 barrels, um, you know, that’s been good. And it’s also the beauty about working in, in, um, in Russia is that because I could speak Ukrainian, it wasn’t very difficult to actually master the lingo, which is, um,

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (16:05):

It was massively, especially in Russia. So they respect that. So such high standard, if you can speak, like you said, the lingo of a wise, it can be a bit hostile trying to try to do business, but I’m kind of sidetracking next. You make an interesting point. When would the people you work with over in Russia? Obviously a lot of these French vineyards, as an example, we’ve seen the wave of Southeast Asian, um, investors, you know, business magnates take over and once, uh, you know, make a lot of French wine. Cause of course back in Southeast Asia wine is extremely popular with, um, the people you work with and the other people in Russia that your competition is that are these boutique Kodiaks, et cetera, is the key working with people who are rushing because they might understand not the Vita culture and how to temperatures may help produce us in quantities of grapes, or is it best to call say the so called experts and who may not have experienced such climates as Russia, but know how to work in? Yeah, it’s a good question. I [inaudible]

John Worontschak (17:12):

Usually in the first couple of years, because, you know, in those days I was doing maybe 12 vintages at a time sort of thing. I would, um, I would get young winemakers either from Australia or from New Zealand or from somewhere trained. And they would actually be there for the harvest and be my ears and eyes. And, and because you have to break a few, uh, you have to break a few eggs eggs to, to, to, to, to get this to work. Um, and, and, and also break down the old culture of the way they do things and that if you’re not there, they just slip back into it. And the best way to be able to achieve what you wanna achieve is to have a owner who employs everybody there, their tobacco 100, and then they will do what you say. But if you don’t have that backing, then it becomes much more difficult and it’s better to have somebody there for your eyes and ears during the harvest.

John Worontschak (17:59):

But having said that, you know, that changes after a few years. Cause you know, they see the difference in quality. They, they, they, they feel that, and then they become engaged in improving themselves. And, and, and so the winemakers now in Russia, they’re all rational ones, Moldovan, but it’s a similar sort of concepts. There was about 10 years ahead of Russia, 10, 15 years ahead of Russia in terms of modernization of the wine industry. Cause they, they, they started in the nineties, I think the early nineties, I think Penfolds went out to Moldova and did joint ventures with Hugh Ryman and all those sort of people. So they already had, had, had moved on. Um, so yeah,

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (18:39):

Way, the way, the way it works, really brilliant. Alright. And something that might be a, an interesting concept that people may not want viewers and listeners and clients might not be familiar with is the flying wine-making, which you were parts of for almost a decade. You know, when people hear flying, winemaking, they’re thinking what exactly is flying winemaking but when you look into it is it’s a very good initiative that has a lot of benefits. So what, what would you, how would you be able to best describe flying wine-making and could you give a say, uh, what a typical season was for yourself being a flying winemaker?

John Worontschak (19:15):

Um, there’s two rural definitions of it. I suppose there’s a flying winemaker who’s who goes and does vintages, which is what I was doing for those six years. And you go there and you work and hopefully you can, you know, you can change a few things and put out a few ideas, you know, depending on what the chief winemaker you’re working for is, and that’s a lot of flying wine making, but I’ve sort of moved on from that and became more of a, it became more of a consultancy because I’d fly in and taste, everything, have a conversation. And also you start looking at the management structure of these companies and whether, you know, you know, maybe the winemaker would be a better one room manager and then they’d, his assistant would be a better wine. And, you know, you can shuffle people around or if you have, or instigate different techniques, we have a chief red, chief white, you know, things that they didn’t think of doing before.

John Worontschak (20:02):

So you be, it becomes more of a global picture. For instance, I’ve been working in Mexico for 25 years and it is rough for 25 years in the same company. And so, frankly, there’s not a lot more apart from having an outside overview coming in from the outside. And the beauty about doing that in so many wineries from Canada to China and everywhere in between. Is that something that they don’t possibly realize and you would keep it just between you and me is that you actually learn more from these people than they do from you because you know, everyone’s doing something different. The soils are different, the grapes are different, the processes of the equipment are different. And then you just, you see something and you go, wow, that works here, might over there, or that really doesn’t work here. And that, so you actually learning all the time, um, uh, not only about wine making, but also just cultures, just, just the different country countries. I mean, Brazil, I worked in Brazil for four or five years. That was just fantastic. I mean, it’s sort of like this indigenous population mixed with sort of Italians and Germans and, you know, the whole thing is just fascinating. And then the ridiculous climate there, and there’s sort of blue vineyards from the copper sprays and, um, yeah, it, everywhere has got, got stories for sure. Alright. I should’ve been jotting them down and

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (21:24):

Yeah. Written the book, your own memoirs. You never know. It could be a thing, could be a thing. Right.

John Worontschak (21:30):

Gotten my percent of everything over.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (21:32):

All right. I’m moving on to four corners consultancy, which was an international consultancy sauce. And at the turn of the millennium, what, what was the approach there? What was the initiative

John Worontschak (21:44):

Harvest wine group that all started really included? Why? Because at the end of the season, I said to the winemaker, you’ve got serious health, health, and safety issues here. I mean, catwalks and plugs and stuff like that, you know, you should really look at it. It wasn’t a cop, it was a cloud of while before it moved, it was in Hillsburg. And he said, okay, well do me a report. I said, well, okay, but I’m gonna have to charge you for it. He said, okay, how much you want? I said, $200. I said, okay, thought that was a week’s work. So I was getting $5 an hour. And so that’s 40 hours work and it took me a few hours. It wasn’t handwritten because there was no computers or any way to type it. Um, and, uh, so I sent him an invoice, which I’ve still got the carbon copy of for $200.

John Worontschak (22:23):

He paid and I thought, well, this is probably better than working with your hands if you work with your mind. And so that started. And so then when I got to the UK, um, I didn’t work for Tim’s Valley vineyard. I consulted for them on a consulting basis. So they decided I’d invoice them and they’d pay me. And I set up the contract winemaking service where I, where I would bill the clients and then pay for the use of equipment, which is basically what I still do today at Debbie’s yards with litmus wines. Um, and so four corners consultancy, uh, progressed from that because it became a more of an international thing. I was now working in South Africa and Canada and France and Germany and all over the place. And so I changed the company, made it a limited company, um, and, uh, changed the name to four corners. And then at one stage had even a four corners range of wines, which, um, which was selling in the UK for a bit, which was a bit ahead of its time. Really. So had my wine-making in different countries, we did Uruguay, we did Bordeaux. We did, um, a few other places, Romania, one other place. And they all had the same sort of four corners label on them. Oh, wow.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (23:30):

How would you think you may revisit that again maybe, or

John Worontschak (23:35):

What I didn’t do. I think I’m doing that. You take away any provenance. And, and I think in retrospect, if I did the marketing research beforehand, they probably would have realized that the general public don’t want some brash Australian kid riding around city in France, what to do. Uh, and so even though I’ve got it on the shelves again in Tescos, it wasn’t a great success commercially it’s fun to do, and it didn’t cost me, but it wasn’t, uh, the best thing in the world, but there’s other brands that are doing it now. Of course. So you never know, you never know. Okay. So obviously with regards to you reference of course, litmus wise limited and, um, warrant stack, wind substance limit said, which should be gotten from 2008 and there’s still a presence that a stay. So it was what are the operations there?

John Worontschak (24:32):

Well, in 2008, I, um, I got together with, uh, Sam Harrop and he had a consultancy business and I had a consultancy business and we, we joined our forces. Uh, it was, uh, uh, in a bid to help the wineries we consulted for reach the market. Um, and so it’s a pride and overall service. Uh, and we did that. We set up in 2008, we changed the name. So I ended up with ended four corners and started with Litmos wines, which was a UK based company. Um, Sam left in 2010 to go back and to go back to New Zealand. Uh, so I bought his shares and we moved to Debbie’s vineyard in dorking, uh, where they were our first major client. Um, so we can solve for them some that I’m the chief winemaker there. We make all their wines and we do their, um, this external sales.

John Worontschak (25:22):

So to this day, we still do all their, all their own labels for whoever, little Sainsburys, MNS, everybody. Um, and so, uh, and then also change the focus of litmus wines to a contract wine making service like was in terms of Valley. And we’re now doing over 200 tons of contract wines at den bees for various clients. And we rent the equipment at Denby to do that. We also import, um, biotech, uh, for wine industry, uh, worked closely with IOC there. Uh, do disgorging do contract bottling. We do, we, you know, we were pretty much devastated. This is beautiful because again, like when people think of a vineyard, they think, okay, I’ll pay for a sec, I’ll get sample five or six different wines, maybe have a, like a cheeseboard or charcuterie a NASTAR, but there’s more than just us. And then you’ve got the wedding, um, packages, you do corporate events.

John Worontschak (26:16):

What else can people expect? Yeah, obviously I have nothing to do with that side of the business. Um, it’s, it’s owned by the white family, um, and they’ve got a fantastic business and fantastic business model. Um, not only the wine and the wineries, but the I’ve got, uh, two to three restaurants. Uh, they do, as you say, weddings, um, I’ve got a brewery, they lease their, they’ve got a farm shop. Uh, they have something like 300,000 people a year footfall. So it’s a really successful, tight little business. I think there’s about 120 employees. Um, and we’re just a part of that. We, we, we look after the sort of production of the wine, um, and, uh, and as, as, as to this day, so we’re picking, we’re picking this week, we began picking on Monday. Beautiful, beautiful, and an interest in one concept that I’m fully on board with was the gin King, or is the King company started in 2017 and still present?

John Worontschak (27:13):

I, I remember, I think it was in my local Waitrose for that mustard. I remember seeing this Basile King, very beautiful label, very, very unique bottle on Psalms of it being Jenn and King. And you look at the look at it and it’s a blend of gin making sales or Y making skills. And it’s an infusion of both, which absolutely goes well as an aperitif. And then a pass is so on and so forth. What did you see that gap in the market? Well, what for, you was like, I need to create something. Jinking why Jane King. Okay. So, well, firstly, just a little bit about Litmos since then, I’ve got two partners who were equal shareholders of the company at the moment is Mike Florence and Matthew Elzinga who are buddies. Yeah, we were good. We’re good friends. So that works really well. Um, one day I came home from work litmus and my wife Ruth was saying that she’d know whether she wanted a glass of English, sparkling wine or a glass of gin.

John Worontschak (28:12):

Uh, what would it be like if he put two and two together? And so I rushed over to the off license that we’d have an agenda, bought some gin and put it in sparkling wine, tastes like shit. And so next year sort of like playing with concoctions and trying to work out how to do this. But the interesting thing was I sort of Googled it and no one had ever done it before. And there’s one or two cocktails with gin and sparkling wine, but no one had done an RTD with generous sparkly one. So it was absolutely unique. So I went into the Litmos office and spoke to my buddies. And um, so what do you think about, we, we explore this and, you know, at the time gins booming, sparkling wines, booming and Laura alcohols. So we thought, yeah. And they both said, yes, let’s do it.

John Worontschak (28:49):

Yeah, let’s go. And so, um, cause it makes more sense taxation wise in the room if we ever sell it. Uh, I set up the drinking company, which were also equal shareholders of, um, and, uh, worked out this recipe by which you can infuse gin heavily infused in, um, uh, with botanicals that you want. Um, and what you end up getting with is something which is really quite refreshing. Um, cause you know, wine, you know, a loved one drink too much of it or the, um, you know, sometimes it’s not that refreshing or not refreshing enough gin and tonic, nothing wrong with that. You know, it tastes like tonic water after a while. It’s a bit simple. That’s true. Um, whereas this it’s down to eight and a half percent alcohol, so you can, you can, you can swing it. Um, and it’s got the sort of complexity of wine and the interest of the, of the botanicals.

John Worontschak (29:40):

And so it kind of works. Um, it’s done very well so far. Um, M and S you would have tried it, not Waitrose. Um, but we’re in, um, uh Morrison’s and Tesco’s, uh, and just recently little for a short period of time, um, we’ve sold to slowly grow in the Netherlands. Um, w w we’re talking to Australia, uh, we sold in Singapore called storage. So it’s out there, the problem, not the problem, but the, the thing that had to be overcome was the fact that the originals are made from English wine, which is very expensive and also a bit like rocking horse shit. And there’s not a lot of it around. Um, and so, uh, we had to decide where we’re going to go. If we’re going to make this a large brand, we have to use European one. So, uh, came up the concept of Mediterranean and using Spanish wine with pine needles and having that sort of fresh, it’s not rich scenery, but it’s got a hint of Rosemary and pine and all that sort of stuff in it.

John Worontschak (30:32):

And that’s quite good. And then, uh, the fourth variant we came up with was Botanica Italia, which has got the Muth type a botanicals in, has got Angostura bark and Genti and rutin. And what have you. So that’s a bit bitter. So there’s four different things in the story is like Lord Warren cheque traveling around the world and sabbatical goes to Italy and does, does does this thing. So this sort of marketing, um, marketing, uh, hype going around it as well. So hopefully one day somebody will come along and say, mr. Orange, Hey, we want to buy your company. And then you hear about it a lot with these, um, these gin companies, which have been popping out and especially the last year and a bit. So you got, you got in before most people got in. And so on that logic, that logic thing is crossed fingers crossed.

John Worontschak (31:18):

We want to do it just yet because it’s so much fun, but I’m getting old well older or better, maybe a bit wiser, but, um, okay. Present situation. Um, COVID self C four for the economy has taken a bit of a battering and there have been job losses and whatnot, you know, we’re, we have found, uh, Colson, boutique and fats, um, because people do consume wine business has been actually very healthy as opposed to business going the other way. But, um, you know, for yourself and for the businesses you represent, how have you been doing, um, well, the warrant check one services, which is basically, um, international consultancy, obviously. Um, that’s gone down a bit, but it’s also made me reconsider, you know, the whole concept of, of AMI miles and the planet and sort of, is it really good to be a gold member of British airways for 15 years?

John Worontschak (32:15):

And, you know, just traveling around so much and you can do a lot less of that and doing a lot more zoom tasting and things. So that’s, it’s, it’s still going, but that, that, that’s, that’s down big time, um, in terms of, uh, the litmus wine range, which we haven’t talked about yet, the English ones, uh, they’re doing very well in, in, in, in, um, in terms of online, online sales. Uh, but obviously the restaurants we’re in the [inaudible] sort of places in London that’s gone down, but sales of litmus wines are keeping up. King is going well, but every penny we make, we reinvest into social media and marketing and that’s to try to, to try to get it there. So that’s not me. That’s never made any money. Um, and the contract winemaking or good, um, no change. So we’re keeping our head above water and we’re managed to managing to pay ourselves what we always have.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (33:11):

Okay. Okay. So with regards to litmus wines, I’ve been up to try, um, a number of them, very, very delicious. And of course, when people do think of English wine, it will be litmus. It will be the likes of Knights Himba chapel down, et cetera. Are you satisfied with, you know, being in that group of very respected names or are you striving to be the number one? So when people think English wine or even European wide, and the thing can, let’s miss elements Wednesday, but forget friends peeing on the wall. We want to litmus pin and what yeah.

John Worontschak (33:49):

Yeah. Um, I think the journey of learning my journey of learning about wine is really reflected in Litmos wines and from the things I was doing back at Tim’s Valley vineyard. I mean, those wines were simple and a lot of English wines still are, you can get very fragrant, fresh Bacchus is very nice, a bit one dimensional, but there, and that’s the kind of thing you do with that standard wine making built from 2010, when the first element 20 litmus wine was produced, I’ve been trying to up the game at the antique to make them more food wines make the more Northern European, the more complex and an incredible aging potential cause with the kind of PHS and acidities we can get in the UK. If you’ve got good grapes to start with, you can eat the 2010, for instance is 10 years old, English white wine is delicious. Now it’s probably better than it ever has been.

Cult & Boutique Wine Management (34:41):

So, uh,

John Worontschak (34:45):

It’s the change in my wine making style and thinking has gone a lot. These wines are a a hundred percent barrel aged. There’s four there’s four in the range. Now the element 20, which is the first one, that’s generally a combination of Chardonnay and backers, a hundred percent modal, lactic barrel, Baton arched, and very, very low sulfur regimes, minimal intervention, white peanut and wire, which I decided to do that in 2011, because I had was one from Trentino. It was delicious. And that seems to work every year, just hold very pressed. And it’s one, but because of it’s from a red grape, you get huge sort of mouthfeel from it, the red pin and wire, which only doing years when, when, when it’s capable, when you can find a vineyard, which has got some God very ripe fruit, and then more recently the orange, which is annoyingly doing very well, because really matter, it’s just a backers on skins.

John Worontschak (35:38):

Um, and that’s, and that’s, and that’s doing well. But to go to answer your question, the whole concept of element 20 was to, uh, if you say Lebanon, people go Chateau Musar. And so, uh, I want said to that and still want that to be a, if you think you’ve English still one, forget the sparkling. So you’ve got, you’ve got your night timbers, whatever we want English still wines. It would be nice if any, if people just thought element 20 and that’s what we’re trying to go. So yes, we’re trying to be number one, uh, and, and trying to do it well. Um, and hopefully the results over the years have shown that we’re consistent and we’re making good wines. Um, they do sell, they settle for restaurants, but they’re very small 10,000 bottles a year. I mean the whole range. So it’s, it’s, it’s a tiny bit of the business, but it’s an important part of the business in the fact that, um, our contract clients can see what we’re capable of.

John Worontschak (36:30):

Um, and aspire to that. And so, alright. Couple of quick fire questions, and then, um, obviously I’ll let you get on with the rest of what you need to do to carry on, um, vice versa as well. So you’ve had lots of positive Cresco or claim Angie Deford of the cancer magazine. John’s Robinson, Oz, Clarke, all praising yourself in particular on the wines, in which you’re involved with. What, what is it, what is it for yourself being involved for the period of time that you have, where you feel okay, I’m going to rest my hustle that now I’ve done all I’ve needed to do. This is my legacy.

John Worontschak (37:12):

I don’t think that’s going to happen. Okay. Okay. I think I love my job. I love wine. I love work. I’m going to keep on doing it until the day I die. I’m not going to retire that I can see. I can’t imagine what I’d do if I retired or I would like, I would live this wine, I guess is the, is the ultimate cause that’s when you’ve got full control, um, from label design to, to, to the vineyard, um, and you know, small volumes of, of, of very nice wine. And maybe when I’m old, Daughtery, that will be the thing and waste. The millions are made from drinking on, uh, making overly expensive wine that nobody will pay for. Oh, would you plan on retiring within the UK or maybe, uh, would you have asked Australia or a different country? Well, it’s funny when I go back to Australia, now it is a foreign country, so I’ve been here for so long now.

John Worontschak (38:10):

I, and I’ve always felt more European than, than, than, than Australian. Uh, so it would be definitely somewhere in Europe, probably in the Southeast of England in Lymington somewhere. I know somewhere. Nice. So, um, and then, you know, spend, spend, spend out the days there maybe with a tiny vineyard, but just being unwell, I guess, just okay. If you’re going to push me on that, I say a couple of hectares of seven, seven, seven 77 clone peanut Mar make a few barrels and share it amongst friends Sal’s parfaits. And, um, is there any, is there any wine out there that is like your desert Island wine? What, what, let you try it. Okay. Two part question one that you’ve tried that you’d love to be left for two weeks on a desert Island with just so you can drink that every day for two weeks straight, but also a wine that you’ve yet to come across that really is on your bucket list, so to speak.

John Worontschak (39:04):

Okay. So, um, in the year 2000, I was making wine in the market, um, in Italy and went to a restaurant and there was, we had a bottle of 1980, uh, filler Bucci, uh Verdicchio. I was just unbelievably good. I, it was, it was just everything you could possibly from one, it was the closest thing to perfection and it shouldn’t be radicchio, shouldn’t be, um, and so I bought, there was, I think the restaurant had six or seven bottles left. So I bought those, uh, took them home with me, thinking that I’d get there and, you know, it was just the occasion, but it wasn’t, you know, every single one of those bottles, I save it and enjoyed with good friends. And so the next time I was there actually found Villa boujee and went to, went to there and said, if you’ve got any 1990 and they said, well, no, we haven’t, but if you have, we’ll buy them from you.

John Worontschak (39:53):

So, um, that, that that’s the wine that really sticks in my mind. So it wasn’t an expensive one. I think I’ve ended up paying 25 years a bottle or something like that, but it was, it was a remarkable wine. Um, what I haven’t tried, which I would like to would be, you know, verticals of a really good first growth, you know, the things that, the kind of things that Janice would do every Wednesday night, you know, have a really good, I mean, you know, a 45 or 61, or, you know, and I would, I would like to just, just to see, you know, what that’s about. I mean, I’ve had first gross obviously, but 45 60 was not verticals, different class, different class. Alright, lastly, um, what is the, what is the future moving forward for, for yourself litmus wines and obviously the other business ventures you do have, um, litmus wines and drinking, uh, the two most important businesses at the moment, um, litmus wines, uh, is doing very well.

John Worontschak (40:58):

Um, we have a lot of fun. We cook lunch every day. We’ve got a nice kitchen. We, um, you know, work hard and play hard and it was it’s, it’s as enjoyable as it is. I don’t want that to stop. So, uh, Jean King is a different thing because it’s moving away from the concept of trying to maximize quality into getting something, which you have to get your head around to maximizing enjoyment, and then how to convey that enjoyment to the great unwashed public. So Institute to do that. And the, and the business side that, um, I haven’t got the business acumen, uh, to, to make a globe to make a global brand. So I have to import that, um, one of the many benefits about doing what I’ve done from working for DGB in South Africa, working for Penfolds in Australia is seeing the corporate world and being part of it from the outside, realizing I don’t want to be part of that.

John Worontschak (41:57):

Um, but kind of understanding it. Um, and I guess jinking is the first, um, thing, which I’ve been part of creating, which is leading towards that kind of mentality. We have to think in a way, which isn’t, you know, haven’t got enough money in the bank next week. It’s like, sort of show much do we need to spend and to stretch it, to make the strategy to, to, to, to, to get there and to be successful, which is exciting and keeping me awake at night, um, and perhaps a bit younger than I am. All right. Understood. All right. So all excites and moving forward, which is great. So I wound up positive news, John, thank you very much, joining us today. Uh, good luck for our thing for the future. Um, and obviously again, guest since number one within the wine trade and eventually send off Jean King as well, you know, as the next big thing for sure. Butts. Um, and thank you very much joining us to, um, until next time, all the best.

Based in south-east France, the Rhône Valley runs from north to south following the meander of the Rhône river. Spanning around 150 miles in total, the region is home to many different micro climates and soil types and is split into two distinct sub-regions, Northern Rhône and Southern Rhône.


Some of the world’s most highly acclaimed wine critics list the Rhône Valley among their favoured regions


Northern Rhône is best known for producing high quality, small production wines made with Syrah grapes, as well as an impressive selection of white wines predominantly from Roussanne, Marsanne and Viognier grapes. Appellations such as Cote Rotie and Hermitage are synonymous with quality but these sought-after wines only represent a small percentage of the Rhône Valley’s total output.

Geographically larger, the Southern Rhône sub-region makes use of a much wider list of varieties, including the renowned Chateauneuf-du-Pape cuvees. Grenache, Syrah and Mourvedre are also found in abundance allowing for the south’s popular ‘GSM’ blend.  

Some of the world’s most highly acclaimed wine critics list the Rhône Valley among their most favoured regions. Robert Parker Jnr paid particular attention to the region for decades stating as far back as 2000 that “No region of France, with the possible exceptions of Languedoc-Roussillon and Burgundy, has made as much qualitative progression as the Rhône Valley.” And it’s this development and refinement that has become one of the biggest factors in the Rhône Valley’s growth in the market. Jeb Dunnuck has also heaped praise on the region, singling out some of the more exclusive Northern Rhône wines as firm favourites over the years.


Rhône Valley is seen as a long-term environment for growth and you should be prepared to hold on to these wines for up to ten years


Recent Performance

The financial performance of Rhône wines has been slow but reliable over the last decade and although there are some exceptions, the region is yet to see a huge boost in values that have been seen across almost all other prestigious wine-producing regions.

As a result, the Rhône Valley is seen as a long-term environment for growth and you should be prepared to hold on to these wines for up to ten years to see the best return on investment. However, if drinking tastes change, as they did with Bordeaux and Burgundy in recent years, holders of the region’s most sought-after wines could do very well indeed.

Recent performance has been quite impressive. Since the beginning of the year, Rhône experienced a surge in trade, by April trade by value had tripled compared to January and by June the region had 60% more buyers and 73% more sellers than it had in January.

Taking at least one good position in Rhône should help to diversify a wine portfolio and protect against potential under-performance from other, more widely traded wines.  Always be prepared to play the long game but when a region as loved as the Rhône Valley has so many top-flight wines, you never know when the market will turn and provide a boost to values.


Sought-After Wines

The number of wines produced in Northern and Southern Rhône which are considered investible grows with every great vintage. Whether you drool over minuscule production, single vineyard Syrah, or prefer a solid CNDP, we’ve put together a list of some of our favourite investible wines from the Rhône Valley


E.Guigal Cote Rotie

It would be impossible to write about the Rhône Valley without mentioning Guigal’s trio of Cote Rotie wines – La Mouline, La Landonne and La Turque – affectionately known as the ‘La La’s’.

A particular favourite of Robert Parker, these Northern Rhône wines have a record of providing impressive growth but be prepared to hold them for ten years plus to see a great return.


Chateau de Beaucastel ‘Hommage à Jacques Perrin’

Cult & Boutique Wine ManagementBeaucastel is a Southern Rhône stalwart whose history can be traced back as far as 1549 when Pierre de Beaucastel purchased the original plot of land. Ownership changed hands several times through the years and is today owned by the Perrin Family.

The jewel in Beaucastel’s crown is the ‘Hommage a Jacques Perrin’ which has been produced since the 1989 vintage as a tribute to their father and has become an established collector’s wine. Only produced in exceptional vintages, in tiny quantities (around 400 dozen per vintage) a good example can happily sit in bottle for forty years plus. This wine demands a longer growth cycle and the best results are often achieved for aged vintages sold at auction.


Chateau de Beaucastel ‘Chateauneuf-du-Pape’ 

Cult & Boutique Wine ManagementA more affordable option is Beaucastel’s Chateauneuf-du-Pape. This great value CNDP blend can be sourced on release for around £550 for a twelve bottle case. 

Due to the relatively low buy-in price, you would need to acquire several cases to produce a satisfactory return but this label remains easily tradable on the market. The 2016 vintage which Wine Advocate scored 97/100 has grown in value by more than 31% over the last two years.*


J L Chave Cuvee Cathelin

Cult & Boutique Wine ManagementJ L Chave is another big player in the Rhône Valley and the Cuvee Cathelin is seen as the pinnacle of their output. The Cuvee Cathelin has been one of our best performing wines from the region, although hen’s teeth and rocking horses spring to mind for the more sought after vintages.

UK prices for aged examples have risen above £8,000 a bottle but allocations of new vintages are sparse – get in early if you can but there are also opportunities in the wider growth cycle to generate impressive returns as the wine matures and remaining stocks dwindle.


Henri Bonneau Reserve des Celestins

Cult & Boutique Wine ManagementHenri Bonneau was one of the most revered winemakers to work the Rhône Valley and his Chateauneuf-du-Pape blends have become legendary through the decades. The Bonneau vineyard and winery are steeped in history with evidence of vines being planted as far back as 1667. Henri sadly passed away in 2016 and winemaking duties are now handled by his son Marcel.

The Reserve des Celestins made its debut in 1927 and has become their most famous and expensive wine. Made from a blend of Grenache, with doses of Mourvedre, Syrah and other local varieties. The wine is only produced in exceptional vintages using only the best barrels, ensuring that every vintage produced is unique. A great example of this wine’s potential is the 2010 vintage which has grown in value by 114% over the last five years.*


Domaine du Pegau Cuvee da Capo

Cult & Boutique Wine ManagementAnother Southern Rhône name that can be traced back to the 17th century is Domaine du Pegau. Their Grenache dominated blend ‘Cuvee da Capo’ has grown to become one of the most sought-after wines from the Rhône Valley. The average production of this wine sits at around 500 cases per vintage and as with many special Rhône wines, it is only produced in exceptional years.

Quality control is of the utmost importance and since the debut vintage in 1998 there have only been seven vintages produced. The best return can be found over the long term and similar to Beaucastel’s ‘Hommage a Jacques Perrin’ best results are usually found at auction for well-aged vintages.


Getting Started

Most of the wines mentioned above are extremely hard to source which is one of the main driving factors in their financial growth. If you are thinking about taking a position with this type of wine you should develop a relationship with a trusted merchant who will have connections with suppliers and can do the leg-work for you.

The value of these wines does tend to jump rapidly and then plateau for a while, so ideally a merchant who is prepared to watch the market on your behalf and notify of beneficial buying and selling opportunities. With the right guidance and some patience, the Rhône Valley’s premium wines have the potential to outperform the majority of traditional investments in your portfolio. Happy hunting!

By Spencer Leat

*Liv-ex, September 2020

cult boutique wine management

The ‘en primeur’ system for selling classified Bordeaux pre-release is well established and has been at the forefront of the fine wine market for many years, but in recent years enthusiasm for this market mechanism has waned.  Could this year’s campaign turn things around?


The idea is simple, the chateaux provide barrel samples to leading critics and based upon their comments, along with vintage reports and other influential factors, buyers then decide whether or not to purchase an allocation ahead of release, with the general idea being that this would represent the base price which should rise over the following years.

However, in the last decade many have felt that the release prices of top flight Bordeaux have been blinkered to wider market sentiment and have increased regardless of the market’s appetite to purchase them. This led to a number of underwhelming campaigns with Chateau Latour famously withdrawing from offering en primeur entirely.

This year the long-standing tradition of en primeur was disrupted by the arrival of Covid-19.  And although at one point there was talk of this year’s campaign being cancelled completely, it eventually went ahead, albeit slightly delayed.

The critics have been very positive about this vintage with most of the leading chateau receiving barrel scores ranging upwards of 96/100. Weather-wise, 2019 has been described as a ‘miracle vintage’ because it managed to avoid the damaging affects of hail storms and the threat of mildew or rot.  But these two positive factors are butted up against some of the most exceptionally challenging trading conditions that the market has ever seen.


Trading became so frantic that at one point Liv-ex’s trading platform actually crashed temporarily


When the chateaux started to publish their 2019 release prices we were pleasantly surprised to see wines being offered at prices between 20% to 30% lower than the 2018 vintage.  In many cases the volume of wine being offered was also down by roughly 20%, which is good news in a supply and demand environment.

This has injected a well needed dose of positivity into the market and the reaction was immediate.  Mouton Rothschild in particular saw a flurry of trading as the world’s leading critics awarded very positive scores and praised the 2019 vintage.  Trading became so frantic that at one point Liv-ex’s trading platform actually crashed temporarily whilst buyers tried to secure their allocations.

It is still early days but given the volatility and bleak outlook that some traditional investments are currently offering, we feel very confident that this could be the kick that Bordeaux needs to reclaim some of it’s market presence that has been eroded over the last coupe of years.

Long standing clients may remember that Cult & Boutique withdrew from offering En Primeur to clients after the 2008 vintage, as we felt release prices no longer represented good potential for growth.  However, in light of this year’s price adjustments we are offering the 2019 Bordeaux vintage as an En Primeur purchase.

So, if you would like to resume your involvement in wine futures, or indeed if this would be your first time, please feel free to contact us to learn more about the process and see what opportunities are available.


By Spencer Leat